You are listening to this Won't fix You. I'm your host, Nadine Pittam, and this show is a curation of interesting models, metaphors, and images discovered or manifested through my work as an accredited psychotherapist. You can expect to hear nifty ideas, clever language, and thought provoking ways of looking at life.

Each episode, you'll get one of two alternating perspectives. First, a conversation which introduces and discusses the theory or idea, and we call this the A side and then the B side, which while not therapy. Is a deeper exploration of that theory or idea from a more therapeutic standpoint.

Uh, hello. Welcome to this one Fix You. We have Helen Sanderson today. Helen Sanderson is the Clutter Therapist. Uh, she has written The Secret Life of Clutter. She's a psych therapist and decluttering expert who really understands that clutter isn't just about stuff, it's about what's going on underneath.

With a warm, compassionate approach, she helps people gently face the emotions and stories tied up in their homes. Helen is not about quick fixes or Pinterest perfect rooms, although she does like Pinterest perfect rooms. She's also about creating spaces that feel safe, calm, and true to who you are. Her work is about healing as much as it is about organizing, making room inside and out for what really matters.

Helen, does that seem fair? Has that summed you up? I think that sums it up pretty well. Thank you. Nice, welcome to the show. Thank you. Lovely to have you. Um, okay, so I'm gonna actually introduce, uh, let you introduce the metaphor that we're gonna be working with today. 'cause it's, it's from your brain, it's from your work.

It, it's something that means a lot to you. Go ahead. Yeah. So I talk, um, about clutter as a burial mound and, um, what is, what, why would I say that? So, in the many years that I've been working with people that have cluttered homes, um, you start to see themes that arise through the clutter. And the theme can often be, um, a trauma, a bereavement, something really difficult that somebody's been through.

Um, or it could also be, um, a dream or a hobby or something that somebody hasn't yet realized. So buried underneath the. Burial mound of clutter. There is a story to be told about this person and sometimes there are painful parts of the story and sometimes there are parts that have been lost or forgotten about and need reclaiming and need.

You know, I like to think about seeds and they need replanting. So there are beautiful things, um, that can be found. Parts of ourselves that we've lost touch with, that are hidden away in under the pile, the burial mound. I, I love that. Like the mound itself as a literal thing mm-hmm. Of all the things in somebody's home that you then excavate together.

Absolutely. And as you sift through your finding parts of, of the people that you're working with. Absolutely. And it is, it is like finding treasures. And I think excavation's a brilliant word, and I think it's a word I've used for psychotherapy as much as, um, decluttering because it is an ex, it's a, it's a, rather than internal excavation, it's a, an external and sometimes you are just literally mo moving soil around.

And then other times you find treasures and, um, and then you find the bits that link the bits and, you know, that's a fantastic image because it really is like that, um, that you start piecing yourself back together again. The other thing about the burial mound is that you know, that the, that when we've buried something that we can't face, you know, a loss, a loss of a relationship, a loss of a loved one, a loss of a.

You know, sibling or you know, anyone really, um, there, there's a, an avoidance that happens that people tend to avoid going near it. And sometimes we do need to process it, but we need to process it in the right time with the right support. So I'm very mindful of the fact that sometimes if there is a trauma underneath that burial mound that it's being.

Um, excavated in a really gentle way that supports the, the processing. 'cause I think when you're processing objects, you are also press processing internally. And so the people that you're working with, I should imagine they'll be surprised by some of the things that you find too. Talking about treasures and sifting through the treasures.

I imagine you, and they don't always know. What's clutter and what's treasure? And I imagine people are discovering alongside you. Absolutely. Um, sometimes I might have an intuition about something and then there'll be things that I, patterns you start linking the patterns and I think you probably do that as a therapist when you're working, you, you're getting little clues along the way and, um.

It, it is like therapy for me. It is, there's such a strong parallel between the external processing and then the internal processing, and it's like the, the clutter represents a state of paralysis, of stuckness. How people often will say to me, I, Helen, I dunno where to start. I feel overwhelmed. I, I'm frozen, I'm paralyzed.

It's, it's too much. And, and it, and they know that the journey ahead is, is a pa, potentially a painful one. A difficult, challenging one where there these feelings that are buried are gonna come up and um, and so being able to work through those feelings and work through that process in a compassionate way mm-hmm.

Because sometimes we can't do that on our own. Mm-hmm. Work through those things. And so I imagine pacing then is so important that you're talking about the gentleness of the way that you work. That must be pacing. All of that must be important, especially in the early stages when somebody perhaps has just met you.

Mm-hmm. I imagine it's quite a scary prospect that there'll be a part of them fearful that you're gonna come in with a bulldozer effectively. And, and so that, I imagine that pacing is really important to, uh, convey that gentleness. Yeah, and I, I mean, I always work, um, with people to get to know them before I'd even go into their home and, uh, contract really clearly about, you know, what I will do and what I won't do.

And so because it is an in incre, you know, it is an incredibly, um, intrusive process. And it does require, I mean, I'm very blessed that a lot of people trust me to, to go in, into that space, but I'm very. Uh, mindful of understanding a little, a little bit more about the history and what might, what might we find so that I'm prepared, um, in that journey, Uhhuh.

So those treasures, those little clues that you've been, uh, picking up on some of those you have in your. Mind even before you set foot of the, of the threshold. Yeah. Yeah. I think that we would've had a conversation and I, I always like to think this is like the foundation of the house. We are not gonna build a relationship or build a project on misunderstanding.

We need to build it on clear contract. And I need to understand what might I find? Might I find a skeleton in the closet sort of thing, you know? And in which case, how are we gonna deal with that together? So that we can deal with it. Because ultimately decluttering is about dealing with something that has been got into stuck static.

Mm-hmm. And, um, finding flow and movement again. So if you go to, um, an osteopath or a massage therapist and you've got these knot knotted muscles or something, you're giving them permission to. To work through them, but maybe there's a bit of a case history that they might wanna take before they start knuckling into your muscles and discover that you had a broken something.

You know? So it's, it's kind of about really about care. Yeah. Taking, it's such a holistic process, isn't it? Mm. You're taking care of all parts of somebody. Yeah. I'm curious about how it works. In terms of the number of people that you're with at a given time. 'cause most people, not most, I know why. I'm making massive assumptions.

Many people share their homes with other people, and I imagine there's one person who contacts you, so your contract is with one person, and yet I imagine there could be whole families or different generations. How do you navigate that? So it, it can get tricky sometimes when, I mean, it's not uncommon that somebody would say, oh, can you sort out my partner?

And then of course, I, I can't, unless they want to work with me. Um, so there might be, I. You know, you know, I've, I've, I've designed a system that I, you know, obviously I, I use it and I think it's brilliant, but it's, um, I use my Home Declutter kit, which I created, which is my system, and in part of that system there is, um, a don't know card.

So if it's, if it's a possession that belongs to somebody else, then it goes in the, don't know, because ultimately my approach is that the, that you can only make decisions about your own possessions. So if you wanna keep it or let it go, then that's up to you. If it's your husband's or wife or child's things, then they need to be involved in the process.

So anything that we find in the process that belongs to somebody else goes in the dunno box. And then they would ask later on. Okay, so I found these things that are your possessions. What do you wanna do with them? And that would be up to them. But you know, it, it can get more complicated when there are different people with different needs in, in one household.

And it's very common that, you know, as we all know, that the saying opposites attract. So the, you know, the minimalist attracts the maximalist. And then how do they navigate that together? How do they. Navigate their communal spaces because it does feel like the one who's dominant dominates the space and then the other person doesn't get their needs met.

So if the dominant person is the one that has clutter, it can be very, very oppressive and difficult for somebody who needs more minimalist needs more simplicity. Hmm. And there are strategies that we would talk about, you know, how, how can we, how can we contain the clutter? So then it becomes about containing how can that, how can we contain that and allow you to have some space.

But actually what I'm talking about here, I'm talking about two adults living in, in one house. We have this same conflict within. So many, many of my clients have come to me and said, I can't live like this anymore, but I don't, but I don't wanna do anything about it, or I can't do anything about it. And so I see this conflict of the minimalist and the maximalist in them that the impasse that has kind of then got into, um, a log, you know, like a, um, I can't think of the word log ahead, or sort of a pushing against.

Mm-hmm. And so quite often what I find that I'm doing is trying to create space for the part that's been, that doesn't have a voice. Mm-hmm. So, and it's usually the, the, the, the person that, that's called me up and says, I can't live like this anymore. I need space. I need space to think. And I, you know, but then there's this part of me that doesn't wanna let anything go.

And so I'm then mediating between the internal. World of somebody and trying to allow them the, the, the, the sort of, the quieter part of them to have a little bit of space as well. Not not to the exclusion of the other, but to have, you know, so both, both parts. So how do we do that? I. I mean, there is, there is an example that's just come to mind of, um, a colleague actually that I, when I was doing my training, she was absolutely amazing.

She had this meticulous flat, it was, you know, minimalist. Meticulous. And then she had one room that was her artist studio. It was complete chaos. And I just thought if somebody had actually kind of demonstrated for me this, the per the perfect way of meeting, then their, the needs of both sides of themselves by having their messy room, if you like.

And their messy room was their creative room and they threw paints all over the place and everything. And then the, the rest of the house was, was, you know, really orderly. And so I think that, you know. We, we have to be creative, but there are ways of doing it, allowing ourselves to have a full experience in the home rather than just, you know, kind of like half, half of us gets to win.

I think that's such a, a beautiful articulation of what it is in therapy is that we, we are trying to listen for the voices, you said the quiet voices, the ones that don't necessarily have as much air time because there's a dominant voice that. For some reason Yeah. Has, has become dominant for all sorts of different reasons.

And it ties in with the internal family systems model of therapy, doesn't it? That there are all these different parts of ourselves that are fighting, uh, and like you say, whether it is literally two people or whether it is two parts of a person, I can see that you are, you're trying to hear all of it and, and it's clear in the way that you talk.

It's really beautiful. There's no judgment of the cluttered part and there's no judgment. Either way, valuing overvaluing one part or the other, you're allowing, you just want to hear from all the parts. That's what it sounded like as you were talking. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think that the, the actual experience for the, the person is, is quite, um, tormenting.

You know, like, how do I, I mean, just to take another analogy, how do I stay the weight? I wanna stay and eat cake. You know, it's like, how do I, you know, it is sort of like, because, because there is a tendency to go into extremes and that this will be one of the things people say to me, like, I don't want to be a minimalist.

I, I love, I love my beautiful things. And you know, however, they're, they're taking over now, so it's like. Getting, helping someone, guiding them back to where they'd like to be rather than where I think they should be. Um, you know, to a place that is. And with more ease where they're more, I balance where, where, where the part that needs that ease and a little bit less has a say as much as the other part that wants to keep admitting

and there must be shame. In this, there must be, as you are excavating that burial mound and the way that you're talking about one part of them, even though you are able to see them and not judge those parts. I imagine for the people, certainly in my experience as a human, but also as a therapist, that judgment comes so quickly if we feel that there is a part of us not, not towing the line, not doing it, how we should be doing it.

Hmm. Yeah. And I, I, I do, I run a, um, a program actually to help people understand a little bit more about those, you know, the, the internal dynamics, um, to help people understand. 'cause I do think that we are much more empowered when it, when we understand, um, ourselves shame is really, is important because I believe that when we start to change.

Shame kind of. It's like somebody gets the volume on the radio and they, and the shame voices turn up really loud. Um, so as soon as somebody picks up the phone to speak to me, the shame is like, it's really, really high. And then if I, if I'm even allowed to come into the home, it's, it's like it's on full volume.

It's a massive, massive thing. And to to, to take over the, the courage to face that shame or to go through it. And I don't, you know, it is, it is so interesting to me how when we're in a process of change, how the critical voices will just completely annihilate us. But, you know, I've kind of got to that old and wise stage now where I think, well actually that's, that's kind of what happens.

And that's why the handholding and the support to go through that is so in, is so important. Um, because otherwise they will, they can, they, the shaming voices can eat you alive. Mm-hmm. They can. But, um, there is so much shame that people feel e even now when we, we've moved away from, um, 1950s housewives and all of that, you know, it's still, there is still a belief that we should be able to keep our home.

And if you've got a DHD, you, you are gonna be struggling. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've, um, certainly written down a few points and wondered if we could get onto A-D-H-D-A little later. Before we do that, can we go back to, you used the word change quite a few times that you've mm-hmm. Often people have this vision, don't they?

I, I want to be that person over there, but I'm currently here and it's that gap that causes, it's the distance, isn't it, between the person we want to be and the person we are now that often carries the weight of all the shame. And people in your work, particularly with the cluttering, I imagine that change is actually possible.

For some people it's a lot about accepting in therapy, but for you, it's really, really is about changing this, that you can take people towards that sort of different version of themselves. And I think I, I thought that was interesting that you just kept bringing that in because change has, is notoriously difficult because we have to know how to do it, don't we?

And, and people don't, so they just look at it all and say, I dunno, I dunno where to start. And you, you have to somehow Yeah. Find those steps. But I imagine they emerge a little, I don't, I don't know how, how. Well, how does the process that even make sense? Well, yeah, I mean, I think it is, it is a journey and, uh, I mean, I, I talk about, I mean, I'm, I'm sorry if I'm.

Triple metaphor person, but I, you know, I think bring them in, bring them in, journey up a mountain and, um, you know, you wanna get to the view. Um, but, you know, some people don't make it to the view, you know, they, maybe they may only make it to base camp one or two or something, but you know, people will say to me, oh, I can't never get up to that mountain.

I'm never gonna be able to get there. And I said, well, let, let's try and work together to get to base one. And then when you've got to base one and you feel a sense of, well, I did that, you know, I can do that. Maybe I can get to base two. And you know, part of the overwhelming, we might have a vision of where we want to go.

This person that I wanna change into is like the top of the mountain. Then it's great to have that aspiration, but when it becomes so far, like you say. Away from where we are, it can then become crushing. But if you break it down into small steps and base camp one base, camp two, and then you start building some momentum and some confidence, like often people when they've contacted me have lost confidence in their, not just in their ability to declutter, but their ability to be functional in life.

So I'm, I'm very much someone who believes in work on the inside and on the outside. You know, if you can, if you can tidy your room and see that, then you can see that you can do something. Even if it's just a small thing of making the bed in the morning or something, it's, it's a message to yourself that you are, that you can take care of yourself, that you are worth it, that you are valuable, that you, you know, that it's a, it's being the internal mother for yourself, just by doing those little things.

There's so much tenderness in how you're talking about people needing to value themselves, that even making the bed is a, is a, is an act of self-care. Yeah. And that, that you're trying to, we use the phrase handhold, trying to help people move towards, there's such tenderness in that. Yeah. And I think because a lot of people, when they come to me, they, they're with the shame, um, factor.

I can't even do this and, you know, a lot of self, um, recrimination and or. Well, it's a chore and I don't want to do chores. You know, there, there there's some sort of rebellious survival mechanism that's, that's been activated that, that might have happened because, uh, they were told to tidy their room and then they have this, you know, or I, I mean I've even had clients who, um, in their seventies and they say, oh, my brother used to go out and play and I had to do the ironing.

So now I do not want to do any ironing or any housework, and so they spent their whole life rebelling against that experience, which I can completely understand because it's it very unfair. You know? However, ultimately a rebellious strategy doesn't really work for the rest of your life because the parents that you are rebelling against have gone and maybe doing some things like making the bed and.

Some just light chores around the house is gonna make you feel good about yourself and it's gonna make you feel good when you come in through the door and you know after work, and it's gonna make you feel confident and competent. So that rebellion against, well my brother used to go out and play, doesn't really fit in the world as we're in now.

And that, and it's unpicking those things, isn't it? That, that help us to say, well actually no, I can make a choice. About this, I can, I can choose to do this for me. I don't have to be the rebel anymore. I mean, and I, I really struggle to give up my rebel. I, I love my rebel. My rebel help me survive. But, you know, and here I am saying to people, I don't know if you need your rebel anymore, but, you know, be rebellious with something else.

I think, uh, that redundant patterns is, again, such a common theme in therapy that, that people come in and, and that they're basically, they come to the therapy because the strategy that they've used before is just redundant now. And it's, it's not just redundant, it's hampering their progress, their move movement forward, their kind of, oh.

Becoming whole for, for one of a, a cheesier phrase. Mm-hmm. And, and so it sounds like it's the same thing that happens that, that, that, gosh, regardless of what area we work in, people still have shields against pain. They still have these shields. And for you it's, it's often physical things. Yeah. Um, and, and the, those barriers, you know, when you've got an internal barrier against pain or, you know, defense or something protecting you, you can't see it.

It's help takes the therapist to help gently point out to you that you, you know, maybe this is going on. Whereas when it's in front of you in your room, there's the barrier. It's the big pile of the burial mound, you know? Then there's no getting away from it. And it is, you know, and I think in both cases it's, it's fear of feelings that we're gonna feel.

Something, if I go in there, I'm gonna feel anxious or I'm gonna feel overwhelmed, or I'm gonna feel sadness, or I'm gonna feel angry, or whatever those feelings are. And, and, and I guess part of what I am doing is saying, look, I'll, I'll help you get through this. And the feelings won't kill you. You know, you will survive.

And, um. The pain of walking up that mountain, it won't kill you either. It, it will be tough on your legs, but you'll get there. So it's building a bit of resilience. I think that that happens in that process and that, I think that's important, isn't it? Because you're not saying, oh, it won't hurt. It won't hurt a bit.

You're saying it is gonna hurt and, and I definitely say the same thing in my therapy room too. This is hard. There's a reason why a lot of people don't do it. Mm-hmm. Because it's really painful. So you're not setting up any illusion for people that, that this is gonna be a walk in a park. No. It's a walk up a mountain and as such is gonna hurt, but you'll survive it.

But it's okay. Exactly. Yeah. What tremendous privilege it is for you. It is, and I, and I love it. And I've been doing it a long time and I still love it. And, um, EE as, as you know, when you, when people give you that trust, it's something that you never. I feel quite tearful. I dunno. It is like you never take for granted the trust that somebody gives you, whether it's your inner world in therapy, the therapy space, or whether it's inviting you into their home.

And people are often mortified when I walk in and I try and say, look, I'm like the dentist. It's just another tooth to me, you know? But when you are at the, and the dentist's table. Um, there somebody's pro prodding around in your mouth and it's feels intrusive. You know? It is, it's a big deal. Gosh, I feel like I need to put some space around that.

That's, that's huge. It is a privilege, isn't it? The, the trust that people put in is, it is a privilege.

Can we change tack? It's something I am yeah. Quite fascinated by. And I, and I'm curious, I don't even know whether you'll have much experience of it, because you are the clutter expert. You are not the, I've decluttered so much that now my house is utterly empty, uh, expert. But I, I'm wondering about the flip side.

If, if, if our clutter is a burial mound of stuckness mm-hmm. I wonder, I wonder is there a kind of an over functioning. That, that you ever see in your work where people have kind of decluttered too much or when the, the sort of drive for minimalism is, is perhaps a little overzealous? Um, more rarely because, um, they wouldn't be the person that's phoning me.

However, people have said that they've done the, the condo Marie Kondo method and thrown everything away and then regretted it. And that's why my process is much more thoughtful. I did actually write a blog saying that decluttering is about unfolding, not folding. 'cause you know her, her sort of folding things, which it is.

And it is partly about that. It is about folding things and making it look lovely and beautiful, but it is about what do you have to unfold in yourself in order to refold. Mm-hmm. So there's definitely the other extreme, the more kind of, um. OCD perhaps stark side of, um, throwing everything away. And people have said to me that, that, you know, they've done it and then they regretted it or their friends have done it.

And then, but I, I think we're all different. I think that's something I want to come back to is that some people will live in a cluttered home and then it will never bother them. They're an academic and they're surrounded by books and they just keep buying books and new spaces and articles and they just don't notice.

And that's fine, isn't it? You know, who am I to judge? And then there'll be somebody else who is just like space, they like to see negative space, empty space that's that for them is, um, nourishing. And so, you know. How we are on that scale, and I think to come back to when we've got two couples that are living together and they have different needs, that's where it gets much more tricky.

Or we've got those two different needs within ourself where some part of me likes space, but another part of me likes to be cozy. Then, you know, sometimes maybe we are lucky enough to have a a cozy room. Like a womb room or something where we can kind of go and just be in a little den and you know, we need that.

Um, and then we have our more expansive spaces where we invite people over for dinner. But you know, not all of us are privileged enough to have enough rooms in our houses to have those different functions. So we have to find other ways of doing it. Hmm. I'm not sure if I've answered your question about the, the min, the minimalists, but, you know, it's, it's that we're all different.

That's really important to me that we, that we respect and appreciate that our differences. Mm-hmm. No, that, that makes absolute sense. If, from a personal perspective, I don't like the clutter that my partner is slightly more. Aligned with clutter than I am. And what, what frustrates me is that I can't find anything.

The clutter itself isn't, isn't as problematic as the fact that I don't feel efficient because I can't find things. What's the point? I find myself saying it weekly. What's the point in having all the stuff if then you can't lay your hand on it? At the point where you need it. So it makes me feel inefficient.

And so that's so heavily tied, isn't it? To my view of myself that I want to be, I want to be efficient, I want to be able to do things. I want that flow to, to be a part of my life. And then that would be reflected in your values. So the values of somebody who wants efficiency, you know, like I want to be efficient so that I can spend more time doing, I don't know, art classes or reading or playing with the kids or whatever.

You know, the, my time needs to be here. That's my highest value. It isn't. Running around looking for the keys. So, yeah, I mean, I, I think that, I call that the planting plan. Everything has a place, a place for everything. So, you know, everybody in the house knowing that, that these, this is where the scissors live and that's where they get put away.

And if everyone can start learning that little bit of, um, uh, a system, it makes it easier for everybody. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think the issue comes in my family home is when there aren't enough places for all the things. And so that just lives in the corner on the floor over there. 'cause there isn't a place big enough for it.

And that's, that makes me go a little twitchy. Yeah. So then if there aren't enough places then, then things are full. And then things need to be emptied. So it's a bit like, you know, I mean, it's a very, another, sorry, another metaphor, but if the, if the cup is full, then you can't fill it, put anything more in.

Um, so then actually that's where the, the decluttering process begins really, is with the weeding out. And, um, and I, I say clutter is decisions that haven't been made. So we need to make decisions about things. Are we gonna, are we gonna keep this or is it gonna go? And if it's going to live here, where does it live?

So it's a decision making process. And when we are tired and fatigued or we are taking on kids, or we're taking on that, then, you know, we want ease, don't we? We wanna watch TV or cook dinner, have a nice time, you know, don't force me to make a decision. Ah, do you wanna keep this? Ah, ah, so that, so that would lead me on to saying that Declutter Decluttering is a project.

I think it's a project, it's take time off work and do it, you know? I see. Do it generally I Right. Don't try and squeeze it in at the end of the day. If you were de, if you were doing a detox, like, you know, a juice cleanse or something, would you expect yourself to run up the mountain as well? So, you know, it, it's kind of, I, I think it's, I think of it as, um, you know, it needs your time and attention because it is exhausting if you think about the amount of decisions that you need to make.

If you've got a hundred books, you're making hundreds of decisions. Even if 80, 80 of them are staying, you still made a decision about everyone. And that then is a huge, uh, mental fatigue, let alone the emotional, um, uh, strain that comes in. Like, oh, but you know, those books represent that training that I never did or the training that I never finished.

And, and, and if I let go of that book, then that that's really an admission that I'm never gonna do that again. So that's deep work. Gosh it is. Absolutely. God, that was so clear how you articulate that, really clear that a decision about one book can encompass so much. Uh, yeah. Emotional weight. Yeah. Tell me about guilt.

Tell me about people who have potentially, maybe I lost somebody in some way or another. They've lost something or they've lost somebody, I suppose. 'cause people could lose, uh, jobs, they could lose limbs, they could lose. Their faculty's in somewhere or another, or they could lose a person, and I imagine stuff can be attached to that as well.

And they might be quite comfortable to get rid of a thing. I. But there might be guilt playing. Now this, this is me having thought about our conversation before you were sitting in front of me. So I dunno even how common that is or it's certainly something I would probably feel is what I'm saying. Oh, guilt is a massive thing.

I mean, it's okay. Very spot on question really, because, um, I mean, I mean the classic thing is, uh, the, the wedding gift that's the fondue set that nobody uses as sitting in the cupboard. But it was a gift. And I feel guilty if I, if I let go of it. But actually it's taking up space and it's your home. And you know, there, there's a sense of feeling every time you let go of something that somebody's given to you, it feels like you're dishonoring them.

It feels like a, a dishonor, even though they don't know that that thing is still in your cupboard. Um, and I think that is cer certainly something about giving yourself permission to please yourself, um, and do what you need to do for you, and that actually, that space maybe is better used for something that, like your juicer or something, you know, not the fondue set.

So, but then there's also survivor's guilt. So, you know, I, I survived this situation. Who am I to be so lucky to have such a nice house? Or maybe I'm gonna fill it and spoil it, uh, a little bit so that I don't have to really feel the guilt of the fact that I survived guilt and regret also making the wrong decision.

You are making hundreds of decisions. How are you gonna make hundreds of decisions perfectly? Mm-hmm. That's. Partly adds to the overwhelm. When people say, I, I'm overwhelmed. I don't know where to start. I can't possibly do this perfectly, so I can't do it. So that's where I come in and I say, look, it's not possible in, in life how, how many of us have not made decision we regret.

And so how do you handle that? And yet it won't kill you. Is that, is that the sort of angle that you take? The, the, the system that I've got with the don't say for example, my, my declutter kit with the don't know card. So the idea is that if there's something that you are, I usually, you know, you know what it's like when you do something for years, you can te you can see what people, when somebody really wants something that it's bang, it's keep it bang, you know, it's like, it's a very clear sort of movement.

And then when they're not sure it's, there's a hesitation. They'll be like, and they'll go, oh, and I say, put it in the don't know card, you know, in the dunno box. And then that's then gives you a little bit more time to think about. So some decisions are easy to make, their gut decisions, they're like, yes, go or stay.

And then other ones need a little bit more, I need to sleep on it or I need to, um, reflect on it, or I need to talk to someone about it. Or maybe I need to journal. Maybe I need to journal with it, or maybe I need to go of this fondue set in a way that feels like an honoring of that gift, so, mm-hmm. I'm gonna give it to my best friend or some, you know, I don't know.

There's ways of doing it. So some, some of it is fast and some of it is slow. And so with my system, I try to mitigate against too many regretful decisions. Having said that, even though you know, I've said that there will still be something because it's just the nature of life. Mm-hmm. You said move it on in a way that honors, honors the gift honors the person who gave it to you.

That feels ritualistic and, uh, what was it? The, is it. Dark Knights, the soul or the wild edge of sorrow. I can't remember. One of those two books talks a lot about rituals as an important part of change to go back to something we talked about earlier, and that rituals enable us to move because they honor who we were.

And everybody, for example, will celebrate a wedding, but not many people celebrate a divorce and, and, and yet the divorce can be as liberating for both people. Who are going through it, as difficult as it may be. And so it feels like you're talking a little bit about a ritual there as well that enables somebody to let something go.

'cause it is an honoring then. Yeah, I mean in, in my declutter kit, the very last card is, is a ritual card. I. Ah, so, you know, to, to place that card. So if something needs a ritual, if it is that, so we have a, one of the cards is a gremlins. So something, a gremlin is not, don't go there. That is definitely in the burial mound is, you know, outta bounds.

But then some things can go in the ritual card and which is, this needs to be honored. This needs to be thought about. This needs um, there is one example that I worked with this absolutely gorgeous woman who had her wedding dress. She was divorced but she still had her wedding dress and wedding ring and stuff like that.

And we got it all out of the wardrobe 'cause it had been in the wardrobe for maybe 10 years. And, uh, we laid it across a chair and we put flowers there and we lit candles and. I suggested that she take photographs of it and, and then I thought, I think, you know, you picked up on rituals and I thought, how many rituals do you do on your own?

Rituals are usually done with other people, aren't they? They're usually witnessed, witnessed, and I think that's what I do sometimes witnessing, giving someone permission, but also witnessing this very painful period. Of someone's life and saying, it's okay to let that go now, and let's do it in a way that feels respectful.

And then she updated me about she took the ring to sell it. And you know, so there's, there's the check-ins, there's the, you know, it's not just we do the ritual buy, you know, there's the kind of Yes. How did it go? How does it feel to let that go? You know, all of that conversation around, because it's huge.

It's huge. Some of those really significant parts of our lives that are varied in the burial mound of our clutter. Yeah. And we can't move them on because doing that ritual is too much to do it on my own. I need, I need the handholding. I need the witnessing. And even you say too much. And I'm, I'm also, uh, wanting to add something.

It's not necessary to do it on your own. Me, it's not. If it can be lightened by sharing it with somebody and somebody who appreciates the enormity and the depth of what it is that you're going through. The wedding dress story you gave is, is quite a poignant one, isn't it? And yeah, to have that witness, to have that shared with somebody, that'll be, I imagine that's an incredibly special moment for her and will remain so for such a long time.

Yeah, indeed. A privilege.

Before we sign off, can we go back to the A DHD question? The, the, uh, I said the, the question that, the comment that you made earlier, um, because like you said, everybody's different. People find certain things easier than other things. I wonder if there's a, a specific angle that you want to kind of go down here.

Um, it, it, it became apparent to me that because I, I've spoken to hundreds and hundreds of people about their clutter. Um, and I, I started to notice these sort of common themes and, and now, I mean, I'm not, I'm not a, a psychologist. I don't diagnose, but I can, I can say to someone, have you ever been tested?

Because it's so common. It's sort of become, and, and obviously we're, we're more aware of it now as is much more in the media. But actually I've been kind of thinking this for many years and, um, and there is just something about the way, time and space kind of don't really, don't really sink. For someone with a DHD, their, their, usually their brain is a hundred miles an hour and their body's.

A bit, you know, kind of 30 miles an hour or something, you know, and so there's, there's this disconnect and, um, there's usually a trail of kind of unfinished things because they're sort of running, running at a hundred miles an hour out the door or something. Um, and so I think a lot of the work is about slowing things down to, to kind of get back into the body.

And to, to try and manage the time and space gap a bit easier, but also having less stuff, having, um, I, I always say the less stuff you have, the less stuff you have to manage. And if you're struggling to manage stuff, have less. Um, so I'm not saying that everyone, every A DHD person should be a minimalist and they never would be anyway, because they are in, by nature, maximalist, you know, they're into ideas and projects and lots of things, but it's just having that mindfulness and awareness that.

Having a capsule wardrobe would probably make life a lot easier if it's just a shirt and a, and a trousers, and it's something, it's just simplifying. Where can you simplify? Can you simplify the kind of foods that you eat? Can you simplify the, the kind of your routines? And, um, you know, can the people around you support you?

So sometimes often people with a DHD will say, if it's not in sight, it's not in mind. You know, so that's why I have everything out. But then their partner who likes a bit of lesser out is like, ah, so how can you have it out? But with more order, maybe you can have beautiful trays or label things, label draws so that it's easier to connect.

Um, I think about, you know, I talked about everything as a place, a place for everything, but that's about creating a mind map. So if we played a game, you and I right now, and I said to you, where do the light bulbs go or where do the scissors go? Or where's the cellar tape? You could just go, Bing. That's, I know exactly where they live because I've got a mind map, but someone with a DHD won't have that.

So part of it might be building a little bit of that mental room or mental home so that it's easier to. Um, follow through and put, you know, put things away or make the bed or just do slow those things down. I think it's really about slowing it down and accepting that it's. Potentially always gonna be a challenge.

I mean, I'm dyslexic. I'm never not gonna be dyslexic. You know, it just, and I know that when I start reading a book, if I have not got at least two hours, there's no point in sitting down to read it because I'll get frustrated and angry with myself for not having got anywhere. So it's like we need to adapt how we approach things, given our challenges.

So given the challenge of A DHD, it, it does, it does make it harder, but the environment can definitely support you to do, to do it easier or better, more harmonious. I'd like to draw that out, that how unique your approach is. 'cause I, I do wonder if a lot of people, uh, certainly I've heard people say coming into therapy that, that they think somehow the therapist will have an idea about.

What kind of a person they should be. And, and this is how we're gonna make you better. We're gonna turn you into this kind of person. And what you've just said is, no, no, I work with you. I work with what you bring, what the kind of life that you want. Um, we're not just about taking your clutter away. We're about sometimes putting it in beautiful trays or putting it in, in, in places with, with labels that that can create this mind map.

How, how reflexive and responsive. The work you do and, and the work I do. That really is, I think that's, that's perhaps important for folks listening. Yeah. And not beating yourself up. That you can't be, um, the the meticulous person who doesn't have anything, but that's never gonna be you. I'm never gonna be short and blonde or, you know, I'm never gonna be the, you know, an X Factor singer or something.

You know? It's like, and it's, that's part. Growth isn't it is like, no, I'm not that, but I am this, I am this and I can work with this. Mm-hmm. And such an important part of therapy, isn't it? I, I, what is it? Carl Rogers said, the founder of person centered therapy. When I accept myself as I am the paradoxes, I can then change.

Yeah. I can become And so many of us Yeah, yeah, exactly. That we're looking to be, to force ourselves, uh, a, a star shaped peg into a round hole or whatever. And I think, you know, I mean, self confession, when I started therapy years ago. I wanted to be somebody else. That was what, yeah. Picked me. Me too. Yeah.

That's what got me in the door. Like, please change me. I don't wanna be this one. Can I have, can I be a different variety? I don't want to be this one. If it, if, if it, if it were, if it's working, eventually you kind of land in your own, in your own neurosis and you work it, work with it, don't you, so. Mm-hmm.

Oh, Helen, that is a, well, for me, that feels like a beautiful place to end, but I do want to just check if there's anything pressing that you want to say before we, before we do go. Oh. But just to come back to where we started, which was the burial mound. Not to be afraid of it and also to, to find, to remember that in there a treasures and those treasures are you, so to you know that when you are going.

To that excavation that you are finding bits of you and you are re re kind of connecting and it and it, you know, if that means you start, you're a 60 and you start playing the piano, then that's what it means. Helen Sanderson, thank you so much. Where can people find you if they want to find out more?

'cause uh, yeah, I can imagine lots of people will. Um, they can find me at my website, which is helen sanderson.com. And or on Instagram for the clutter therapist. Um, so find me on social medias under the clutter therapist and come join my wedding mailing list. And there's lots of things that I've got going on and, you know, probably other things happening.

I can't remember. I'm gonna sign up right away. As soon as we hang up. I'm gonna sign up for that, for that newsletter. I imagine there's all sorts of little tips. I love the way you. Play with language. I dunno. Obviously it's clear you're a writer, the way that you use language kind of makes things just feel, um, yeah.

Gentler, kind of more accessible for people, I think. I think it's, it's been really beautiful listening to you talk. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's been a joy and I really hope that people get some inspiration. Maybe people could send you photos on their, uh, via Instagram of, of things that they've done as a result.

Absolutely. That would be fantastic. I'd love that.

Thanks for being with us this episode. The B side, which takes one aspect of this episode and digs a little deeper into how that might be explored in the therapy room, will drop very soon. In the meantime, if you'd like to have more of our conversations and metaphorical excavations, it would be ground for you and ground for us.

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