Hello, everybody. Today I'm joined again by McArthur. Hi, Meg. Hello. It's lovely to be back. Uh, Meg was with us before on a previous episode about anxiety, which was one of my favourite ones. It was quite an early one, wasn't it? I think maybe episode seven ish? Something like that. I should have checked that before. Before we started. Um, we're looking at a quote today from a book by Marissa G. Franco, and the book is called Platonic How Understanding Your Attachment Style Can Help You Make and Keep Friends. I love this quote. I'm really glad you picked it, Meg. It's been on my list for a long time and let me read the quote. I might even have to read it twice because it's quite a convoluted one. Okay, it's about relationships, essentially. So let's get our our minds in that zone. Our behaviors in relationships often lie on a continuum, she says, from those that protect us on one side and those that protect the relationship on the other, to protect ourselves from rejection or harm, we withdraw or devalue the relationship to say it wasn't so great anyway, or act competitive or dominant. But in doing so, we injure the relationship. To protect the relationship, we accommodate the other person's needs, do things for them, or affirm them. But in doing so, we are left more vulnerable to exploitation or rejection. When we're in self-protection mode, we are an anti relationship mode, and when we're in relationship mode, we're defenseless. Insecure people hover in self-protection mode, which is why they struggle in relationships. When triggered, they're thinking about themselves and not the other person. You know what? I'm not going to read that twice because folks can always just skip back. Um, Meg, isn't it? No, we haven't actually had a conversation about this, so I am fascinating what you think. Like, give me your headlines. Oh my gosh. Gosh. Headlines. I think I'm just going to go personal, okay. And say that the reason this one really attracted me was because I can I can see it or I have been able to see it playing out in myself. Um, so I'm divorced and I'm in a new relationship. Well, I'm going to say new goodness. I've been in it nearly ten years now. But, you know, to me, it's still my new relationship because the other one was 27 years, you know. So it's like, you know, it's still new. It's a big new kid on the block. Yeah, absolutely. Um, but I really noticed at first because obviously I was in a very I was in quite a vulnerable position, having had a really very difficult divorce and being. Well, I'm not sure I ever want a relationship ever again. You know, I'm going to be okay on my own. So in the early months, years, I would say of the new relationship, I was doing this backwards forwards thing, you know, because I suppose I was hugely insecure in myself as well as in the relationship. So I was I'd be like, yes, this is wonderful. I'm really enjoying this. This is like something I've never experienced before. Um, you know, happy days. Um, and then I'd be like, no, no. Total overwhelm. No, no, this is not the guy for me. I never wanted a relationship anyway. And I completely back off. And I was like, we need to end this. We need to end this. So. And so I would literally. Backwards relationship and that's it. Um, and I would write emails to him explaining why this could possibly not go on. Um, which was, you know, looking back. I think hugely hurtful. Um, but, um, he was pretty determined. And so, um, it it wasn't that he pursued me, but I would after a while, I'd be like, oh, gosh, I can't cope on my own. I'm really I'm not managing this. You know, I well, you know, he was quite a good thing, actually. Maybe I should get in touch with him and and try again. And honestly, we went through this cycle so many times, I can't I can't remember how many times until in the end, it's settled. Um, and I still have those moments. I still have those moments. But there's nothing like this terrible backwards forwards thing that was going on where, you know, when you think of her quotation, I mean, I'll come on to this later, that I actually think all relationships are inherently unstable, dynamic, insecure in movement. Um, um, so that's kind of part, part of the norm. But this, this incredibly distressing backwards forwards thing was about me being just as a person. hugely insecure. Um, you know, my my attachment fears in there. Yes, yes yes, yes. And if you think of my own attachment style, I'm very much on the avoidant end of the, of the spectrum. So for me, you know, protection for me to make myself feel okay is a void. It's go back, go back into myself, retreat until I retreat. Yeah, yeah. Whereas other people, you know, they might have been piling it on onto the relationship, you know, and overdoing things and making the guy feel suffocated because that's what did it for them. Whereas for me it was just no, no, to be safe, I have to retreat. Um, yeah. So this is going to be an interesting conversation because I'm an anxious attachment that I'm in the anxious attachment side of the scale. So we're going to have both perspectives. Um, so yeah, the three attachment styles, the the three insecure attachment styles are avoidant, anxious and disorganized. Seems to be yes. People are settling chaotic sometimes. Yes. Yeah yeah yeah. There is of course secure. But I think only one person in the world has a secure attachments. I don't think there are many people who fit that category, but I certainly definitely for more on the anxious and so for me, the relationship. I would absolutely sacrifice myself every single time in order to make sure that the relationship was secure. So I would put my needs on one side and not and kind of and then lose myself and then find myself utterly lost and blame the other person somehow then for not giving me enough attention or not. Yes. Yeah. Not not looking out for me as much, whereas I haven't given them any space to do that. I've just been. Yeah. Like you said, suffocating. Sucking up all the air in the relationship. Mhm. Mhm. It's fascinating isn't it. And, and so my relationships like in my adult life, my two big relationships, the one with my husband and the one with, with my partner. Um, it's interesting because we're all avoidant essentially. Um, you know, my current partner, he, he, he well, the way we live is we live in two separate houses because this works for us. So, um, we have plenty of space, and we've considered the whole thing of moving in together, and, um, it wouldn't work for us financially or practically, but emotionally it wouldn't work because we're both we're both introverts, and we're both avoidant detachment style. So, you know, the whole romantic idea of, you know, living together and being everything to one another and all that stuff. That's just not us at all. And you just have to go. Well, this is the reality. Um, the the dreams and the fantasies. They stay in the storybooks. The reality is we're two avoidance, we're two introverts. And what works for us is lots of time together, but plenty of space apart. And if I think about my my husband, he's he's super avoidant for all sorts of reasons. So it got to the point where, um, when I was seeing a therapist, she said, you know, you're surviving on crumbs through the bars. Um, because there was so. So. Yeah. Yeah. So, so little going on between us that, um, it wasn't sustainable for me because I'm less avoidant than he is, you know, not not his fault. That's just the way things are. Um, so being realistic, I think, you know, that that relationship needed to end for all sorts of other reasons, but that was a big part of it. You've touched on something there. I think that that came out for me when I was thinking about the quote before we started talking, which is that we are responsible. So, yeah, if that is your your ex-husband's. Uh, that's the degree to which he wants to be involved in, in relationship. That that's if he's if he's totally happy there, then you then have a responsibility. That's what you're saying. You have a responsibility to respond to that in a way that is true to you. And you were saying about that line from your therapist, you're surviving on crumbs through the bars. Oh, it's quite a visceral quote that, isn't it? And that then, is is an invitation to you to go, okay, so I need I need vulnerability for this. Yeah, yeah. And that's not because I need more than crumbs. Yeah. Long term it's not sustainable. No. It was a big moment that when when she said that um yeah. So yeah one of those lines you'll never forget. Um yeah. Yeah. Um, but yes. But then thinking about what you said earlier, um, about how, you know, you'll give everything to the relationship, the message for me that comes immediately from that is, oh, you're so selfish. I'm so selfish because I'm not prepared. I'm not prepared to give everything to to the relationship. I'm. I'm concerned about me. Um. So can you hear me? Oh. You've disappeared. Oh. She's gone. That's not good. Shall we just carry on? It's. Can you hear me? There you are. Lovely. We're back to break. Oh, dear. Sorry. Um, I don't know what that does. That's. I've had a break. I got tired of talking about a break. Let's see. Oh, it's my. It was. My connection was unstable, which occasionally happens here. Um, right. I mean, I think we've probably got the majority of what we were talking about, even if, even if it did come off. But I think it cuts off only at the last minute anyway. So I think we've probably caught that. Um, just start that sentence again. You were saying I think you were going into a self-judgment spiral. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, you look at the person who's got the anxious attachment style, who is giving everything to the relationship, and you go, well, that's that's what I should be doing. Because if I'm not, I'm being selfish. It's that kind of, um, trying to get a balance which feels ethical, if you like, you know, how much do you give to the relationship and how much do you look after yourself? Um, and yeah, definitely the message for me as well. If you're not prepared to give everything to the relationship, then you're selfish. Um, and, uh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, which is clearly a load of bollocks, frankly. Um, but but, you know, people tend to agree with you, Meg. What you just said is entirely bollocks, because it's not a happy place to be. The utter devotion to the relationship does not lead to happiness. No, no. Anxiety and, um, crisis can come from that. Because if the relationship is and it's not just the relationship, I think. Certainly I do feel like I'm on top of it. It sounds like you are on top of the kind of crisis management of your avoidant attachment. In the same way, I'm on top of my anxious attachment, but in moments of crisis throughout my life, definitely it has been if I've had an argument with a friend or not even an argument, if I just sensed a sort of that text message was quite short. Um, have I done something to upset them? And then I'd go off in this huge, yeah, pointless spiral about about that relationship, every other relationship then, because all the other ones would be secure at that point. That then is the one thing that I'm focused on. And my entire life then is devoted to fixing that, bridging that. And that's that's an exhausting way to live, because being anxiously attached, I, I've always had a lot of friends. I like having a lot of people in my life. And so if I've got a lot of friends, then inevitably Law of Probability says one of them is going to be up shit creek at any one time. So I'm spending my entire life like with putty and cement, trying to frantically mend relationships. Yes, yes, endless painting the Forth Bridge. My goodness. Yes. Leaking the dam here. Leaking dam there. Oh god awful. Yes, actually I do. Where am I? Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Clients. I've had a client very much like that. But, um, the whole thing of, um. Well, I'm worried all the time that somebody doesn't like me, you know, constantly fixing it is exhausting. Yeah. So I don't have that cross to bear anyway. I have different, different issues going on. Um. Yeah. Um, so. So I'm just sort of thinking what else I thought about when I was preparing for this, and I was thinking about, um, you know, I think we can think that a healthy relationship is going to be stable. Um, you know, it's just going to feel good all the time. But I was thinking. I was thinking under the metaphor of a relationship, and I looked up, you know, what's the origin of the word relationship? Um, so the ship bit goes back to, um, you know, Middle English, and it means the sort of state of something. So like, you know, you have your relation, your relations there, the concrete thing, and then you've got this abstract idea of the relationship. And so it's the same applies to friendship or partnership, you know. There's concrete and then the abstract. I was saying, oh, well, that's very interesting in itself. Um, but also a bit disappointed because I wanted it to be something to do with ships, to do with boats, you know. But, you know, the idea of a relationship. And because I was the vessel. Yes, yes. Um, because I was thinking, when you think of ships. So they're always they're going to be up and down, aren't they? Because they're on the water. So up and down and they're, they're always the point of a ship is it moves. You know, if you're if you're stuck in the port, you're not really doing your sort of ship job, are you? And then I was sort of branching out from that. And so, you know, if we can accept that all relationships are in a state of movement, um, which might be forwards and we're making progress, or it might be times where we're, we're going backwards and we have to scuttle back into the port to get to be safe and fix some holes in the, in the sides or whatever. Um, and I was getting quite carried away with this really, because I was thinking like, you know, um. You know, if your ship is sinking, you need to do something fast. You know, don't just watch it sink or. Um. Then I was thinking about a different. What is my relationship? What sort of boat is it like? Is it like, um. Like, um. Like. Well, your boat sounds like it could be a sort of cruise. Um, a cruise liner. Because you need lots of people on board yours for your relationship boat to be okay, whereas mine might be, just like me and my partner were just going along side by side in two canoes. Do you see what I'm going? I could go on and on. That's interesting. You've come up with that because you think you see mine as a cruise ship. What I see is like some sort of Spanish Armada fleet that needs so much maintenance. So it's rather than being one big ship, I see it as like hundreds and hundreds of tiny little ones. Yeah, far more stressful. The one great big cruise ship where I can just employ one crew. No, no, no, I've got all these rickety, little shoddy boats out there. They're all at risk. Oh, my God, the whole thing could come at any point. Gosh. So remind me. Oh, sorry. Well, I was just thinking, like, all the metaphors that we actually already have, like, you know, the relationship is on the rocks. You know, that's very ship. Ship, isn't it? Or there was another one I was thinking of. Oh, we passed like ships in the night, you know. That's how my my ex-husband and I had got to, you know, we were passing like, ships at night. Totally avoidant. Um, so I was just thinking, you know, when you're perhaps working with couples, it could be perhaps quite a useful idea to bring in, you know, like, well, what is your relationship like? And what can we learn from that? Um, yeah. And how much time we do dedicate to because, like, I love what you're saying about it being a dynamic, that constant shift, this is something that we can't pin down. It's not something that. That any of us can rest in the only. And that's what's exciting about it, of course, isn't it? Is that it's a challenge because it's ever changing. I mean, yeah, several talks about that. There's a constant tension between the the freedom of being single, the freedom and, and all the risk that comes with that versus the security and, and the sort of, uh, what's the opposite of freedom, I suppose? God, am I going to say entrapment? No. That's terrifying. But there is something that a relationship closes down if we're in monogamous relationships. But even in polyamorous relationships, because, you know, we reach saturation point, we can't just keep going because there's only so many hours in a week. Yeah. So yes, it is a constant tension between that, that freedom and that security that we're pulling back and forth. And of course, it's not just us, is it? We have the person at the other who's also at the helm of our ship and, and their needs need to be taken into account and different stressors. And, and then maybe some of us have children as well. Oh blimey. Yeah. Yeah. And so that negotiation meant no wonder everybody comes to therapy because their relationships are the thing that's causing pain because yeah, what we need. And at the same time though, what causes us the most distressed? Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So what did you just say then? Oh my goodness. There were so many ideas that I was responding to in what you said, and I can't remember which one to which one to chase. Was it the deeper stuff, the tension between freedom and it was the choices. The choices. It's a, um, because, um, Alain de Botton, we've probably said this before last time, but he says you need to consider what sort of suffering you prefer because you're endlessly making choices in a relationship. And you can't use a choice when you choose something. You always lose something. You can't have everything. You. Yeah. So, you know, you and there are so many clients. They come and they want a solution which will be wonderful, you know? And and then you're looking at the options and you go, well, there's no good options here because this is such a difficult situation. But what is the, um, the best of the bunch really. Um, and sometimes it's best to better to look at which sort of suffering you prefer, rather than, you know, which which joy do you prefer? Um, because actually it's a suffering which will grind you down. Um, so you need to. Yeah. Um, so you better align it. Well, make sure the bed that you're going to lie in is reasonably comfortable, you know? Yeah. Even if it's not, you know, um, the I can't think of an analogy, but, you know, it's not the best of all possible beds. You're maybe not going to get that, but you can get a bed that is reasonably healthy and is going to give you a reasonable sleep, um, so that this relationship feels peaceful. Peaceful enough. You know, it's like back to like the good enough concept that we use so much in counseling, isn't it, that it might not be perfect, but it will be good enough? Um, yeah. And it's our search for the perfect or our expectation of the perfect that is causing us the suffering. Certainly the Buddhists believe, at least my understanding of the some of the Buddhist theologies, that it's that our suffering comes from the rejection of what is we're fighting. What is so should is an argument with reality is something. Tara talks a lot about. Yes. You know, the reality is this thing, if we're saying it should be different, then, well, we're just causing ourself an awful lot of pain there because this this is what life is. This is what it is. And that that idea takes me back to, um, Scott Peck The Road Less Traveled, which, you know, when I started training, it was very much a book that was around and people read and I think and Scott Peck did some bad things later on. And there's been a bit, you know, well, we don't talk about him, but, um, the first line of that book is life is difficult. And basically he spends the first chapter telling you to get over it, you know? But if you once accept that life is difficult, you will be able to be more happy. But if you're constantly going, no, no, this isn't how it should be, that you're going to struggle. Yeah. Yes. Well, there's all sorts of references bringing in my mind there as well, because I know that. Byron Katie. I don't know whether you know Byron Katie. She's quite, uh. Let me. God, so many things in my head about Byron. Katie. Her she's written a book called The Work, and I think pretty much she just says one thing and she says it in about through about seven books. She's got a YouTube channel. She says the same thing over and over again. And it is exactly this that it's quite a confronting I don't know if you've ever seen or read any of it. I bought her book and I bought it. Maybe about it was probably just after you and I met down on that psychosexual course, and I bought the book, and I, and I read the first chapter and went, well, that's horrendous. I'm never reading that again. Almost threw it across the room. And of course, we know what that kind of reaction signifies, don't we? That there is something really important that we need to learn in that book. So I then went back to it about a year later, and I wouldn't say it changed my life. Maybe it had a it had a really profound impact on me because it is just a relentless articulation of the world is the world, and you cannot change it. You can't change people, you can't change the world, you can't make anybody any different. And yeah, that's the bit I was rejecting, I think, like, why can't I? That's why I just throw the book across the room. Yeah. No, no, that's a powerless place to be. Surely I have more influence than that. Um, but yeah, when I read it, it's actually been one of the most soothing things I've ever read, even though it's quite confrontational. It's quite a confrontational book. Mhm, mhm. And it sounds like she's very much on the same page as Scott Peck. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think Miranda Hart refers to that in her book that's come out recently, um, which I think is um, is a lovely life enhancing book. I think some people have attacked it against it because they say, oh, it's not a memoir. It's more of a self-help book, but, you know, it is about her journey through her, her difficulties of having Lyme disease and the huge impact on that. But she yeah, she references the work in it. So I shall dig that out and have a look at what she says about it and then maybe get this book as well. I like a good confrontation. You know, I'd be interested to know if you throw it across the room. Gosh, I had such a strong reaction. I loved it. Yeah, I love that. Can I go back a little bit to something that you said about the when you were talking about the metaphor of the ship and the different ways that we maintain a ship? Um, yes. Because I read something at the weekend. It was my supervisor, actually. Thank you, Morag, who put me on to a woman who writes a column for The Guardian called Eleanor Gordon Smith. And I'd not read the column in the Guardian before, but she does. It's kind of an agony aunt style. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And, uh, and somebody wrote in about, um, having an obsession with somebody outside their relationship. And she talked about, uh, in fact, she, she talks about the if if your relationship is shit, if you feel that your relationship is shit or it's not working or it's not, it's not delivering in the same way that you think it should be delivering, then is it not delivering because you've got your eyes on this shiny thing outside the relationship? And we're assuming, obviously monogamy here, or that this person sits outside the poly rules? Um, yes. If she said something beautiful little metaphor. Is the bike not reaching its potential because you've stopped pedalling? Yes. Or is the bike not reaching its potential because there is something wrong with the bike that needs attention? You know what role is? The bike is a thing, and the relationship, like you say, is an abstract thing. It needs feeding. Love is a verb. Love is not a thing that lands in as we become so blessed with love. And then for all eternity, we we find that easy. No no no no love. Love is a verb. And it's what we do. And it's. It's how we pedal, so to speak. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We're talking about a boat metaphor. It could be rowing, couldn't it? Is they. Have you stopped rowing? Or has your your boat got an absolutely catastrophic hole in and the whole thing is just going to scuttle, you know. Yeah. And if it's your boat that's got a hole in, that's not your partner's fault. Like, no, we have to fix our own boat. And we started by talking about that, that responsibility that we have for our own responsibility for the holes in our in our own boats. We're responsible. Yes, we might garner help from other canoes around us, but if the hole is in us, then that's for us to fix. And that's a that's a painful truth too, I think. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Just going. So we're thinking of the boats around us. I just I just want to go down, dive down another avenue here because I don't know if you've come across the recent book, The Anxiety Generation. I mean, actually, it's been out for a while, but it's just come out in paperback. And, uh, Jonathan, I don't know how you pronounce it. Hate something like that. Heidi. Anyway, um, his basic concept is about, um, the huge increase in anxiety since about 2012 correlates to the introduction of the smartphone in young people. Um, but also the over protection of parents. Um, and what I'm finding interesting is that people are jumping onto the phone thing because it's kind of easy. We can in schools, we can go, oh, well, we're all going to put the phones in these secure pouches before you come in, or they all have to stay at home or whatever. Um, so that's kind of like a that's something we can do, you know, we can go, oh, I'll stick a plaster on it like this. But what's not being addressed because it's so much bigger and more difficult to implement is the over protectionism of children. Um, and so, you know, children are being brought up being taught that everybody is a threat, you know, um, stranger danger, they're all paedophiles. You've got to just you can't you can't go to school on your own because something terrible might happen to you. So. Because we're relational. I think it's utterly toxic that our young people are being taught that because they can't access the other boats. If you like, you know, the boats around them are seen as a threat. Um, so, you know, how can you not be anxious if you're whole? We are. We are. We work as a society. You know, we are relational. We need communion with others. And you go, well, you can't because they're dangerous. Then I just I fear for the future. I really do. It's not going to get any better. Um, can I add to that as well? It's not just that the world is a fearful place, but also you do not have the capacity because that that's what the message is, isn't it? If the people who are in charge of the children, the parents predominantly, then if they are over protecting and they're saying it's not safe out there, then they're also kind of not imbibing the children with the skills that they need in order to, um, manage their own safety. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, let's not let's not necessarily. And let me absolutely preface all of this with the fact, with the statement that I don't have children. But if we shut down areas of the internet, if we shut down areas of society and socializing, we keep our kids in a sort of sanctified, um, sanitized world, then what we're not doing is imbibing with them with the skills of discernment, so that when they do encounter things either in the real world or online, that they have the capacity then to manage that. Yes. So they completely lose resilience. They completely lose empowerment. You know, they they're just helpless, really, um, helpless and anxious. Um, so, you know, where does it how does that fit in with attachment theory? Does it just busking here? I'm thinking about this. I mean, you would become you could become incredibly avoidant. Couldn't you like these young men in Japan? Apparently, this phenomenon is spreading. You know that men who are just staying in their rooms all the time, doing their computer games, having relationships with with avatars rather than with real people. So you just become utterly avoidant. That's one way it it can go. Um, could it go the other way as well? Um, well, actually, it's interesting, isn't it, because the whole business about, um, because particularly young women feeling that their relationships have to be sort of like you are describing, all their relationships have to be fantastic. Um, and then if somebody undermines something, though, their world crumbles. You know, I'm not saying this very clearly. Um, but. Their own image has to be perfect in order for them to be able to be relational. Um, and if it's not, they go into this complete head spin of, you know, I am I'm so ugly, I, you know, eating disorders, self-harm, the whole thing. Um, because I think they can't actually have a secure relationship. The whole thing is, is horribly insecure when it's, um, it's all these online relationships or phone based relationships. I'm just because it's built on an external, uh, validation, because it's validated external locus of evaluation, external validation. It's coming from outside the self. And yeah, I heard somebody say on a podcast, I think it might have been a spiral, talked about how we're not negotiating on the streets anymore when we're when we're kids. We used to play out, kids used to play out on the street, and there was negotiation. And if one kid hurt another kid, then. You know, those kind of societies were played out in micro on the streets of skateboards and bikes in a way that that it seems a little bit more. Uh, siloed online and that I've had lots of conversations as well about the kind of over and over labeling that people have of themselves that, um, especially in terms of gender and sexuality, that, you know, the kind of it becomes a place to feel safe if I can find the right niche, if I can find a way to label myself to, then I can fit in. And actually, the most powerful thing is to allow yourself to fit in anyway, regardless of where you sit on gender spectrum, regardless of where you sit on your sexuality spectrum. Can I find a way of fitting in as I am. Mhm mhm mhm mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course if you, you decide you're in this place or with this label that is this is where I fit. That's very lacking in dynamism, isn't it? It's kind of. Now I'm fixed. And so thinking about what we're talking about. Relationships needing to be dynamic, moving. Um, there's something that feels like a block there towards relationship because. And actually, that is what happens, isn't it, that people become very, um, very dogmatic about this as my gender. This is who I am, respect who I am. Um, you know, don't don't question it. Don't argue with it. Um, there's a sort of lack of negotiation going on there. I'm probably getting into very dodgy territory here, but, um, I'm just speculating whether that actually is quite, um, um, undermining of relationship. Um, I don't know. I think I agree with you. If, if, if we think we can only relate to people who share our demographic identification, I think if we can. Yes. If we can say, okay, this is where I am. Uh, where are you? Talk to me. Let's have a conversation. Yes. Exactly. Yes. Yes, that. Is that what you're trying to say? That. But otherwise, if we're if we're saying this is who I am, and I'm looking for other people who are like me because that then feels safer, then what we're doing is, yeah, we're narrowing down our yes capacity to and our enjoyment of relational dynamics. Yes, yes, exactly. People bring to one another. Yes. That's much better put. Yes, that's what I mean. Excellent. What you said. Right. Yeah. What you said. Exactly. So what else could we say? Right. Do you have any other. You said you you'd you'd got a sort of angle on this. I don't know if we've talked about your angle. On my angle? Yes. Um, well, I suppose it came directly from the, from the quote where she talks about the kind of defense that kicks in with people when they reject a relationship in order to protect themselves. And they will say things like, oh well, fuck them, I'm better than this. I didn't, I didn't really want it anyway. And that's that. That seemed like a massive rabbit hole to me that I was fascinated by, because certainly my hours and hours and hours sitting with people in the therapy room says that when we pretend that we do feel something, or when we pretend to ourselves that we don't feel something, we are absolutely setting ourselves up for a life of anxiety because we're ignoring something. And and I think there seemed to be something of that in the kind of, oh, well, I didn't want it anyway. Yeah, well, if you didn't want it anyway, there's something you're missing. So either you missed it before because you didn't get yourself out of the thing that you didn't want anyway, early enough, or you're out of it now and you're pretending to yourself that you didn't want it anyway. Either way, there's a pretending going on because there's there's no there's no nuance in. Well, I didn't like it anyway. Let's allow let's allow both. And I think that for me, one of the most powerful. Things that comes out of therapy for people is the capacity to sit with both or multiple different truths all at once. There isn't one thing. That's right. That these things can both be true. Do you know what? It probably wasn't the right relationship for me. I'm. I suppose there's a part of me that's glad it's over. But. Jesus, I missed that about the person. And that that was a really. You know, we had a beautiful time in that way. And I think being able to open to that. Oh, there's pain in there. There's joy in there. But either way, there is extremity of emotion, isn't there? Whether it's a joy or a pain. And I think that subtlety is is vital. So I suppose that was part of my angle. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. No I think you're we are such creatures of wanting to be it's right or it's wrong, it's this or it's that it's good you know. And I mean I've been reading the Dow quite a lot recently and it's so very much you know neither of you don't have to label. You don't need to label what you know. Um, um, yeah. I mean, mostly that seems to be what it's about. You don't have to label. You don't have to decide that this is right or this is wrong. Um, there's a there's a both and a message to it and probably hideously misconstruing here, but that's what it's it's giving us ancient text. Yeah. That's what matters, isn't it? That's what this is about. I'm interested in your opinion. Yes. Um, and there is there is a false security, isn't there, in naming it? If I can name it, then I have power over it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, I'm just thinking, how does this play out in the in the therapy room? Um, I suppose because I'm very CBT trained in my background. You know, you do come across these, these like, deficits that people have. You know, these, these core beliefs, um, these negative, automatic thoughts that come up and are completely dogmatic. So, you know, they are rules that people are living by. Um, and so often it's a real revelation to go, well, um, not everybody, you know, not everybody thinks that, actually. And I don't happen to think that. Um. It's interesting. I was working with a client the other day, which was about, um, it was about a relationship. So much about relationships, because it's about the need to have a child, but specifically to have a daughter. And what there was about having a daughter that was so, so big. But when you looked at what was had gone on and I don't want to sort of identify it. So but when you looked at what was going on in her family background, you could see why for her, she had all sorts of messages about having a boy. A boy would be a bad thing. And so, you know, in that case, it's almost like, well. I've got to have. I've got to have the binary opposite. You know, I've got I can't. I can't think about having a boy who might be different from all these, these, these boys and men that are in my background. That's not a possibility. So it will just have to be a girl, and then we'll have fixed it. But of course, that's so lacking in nuance, so binary. You're absolutely in a stuck place because, you know, you can't go ahead and get pregnant, assuming it's going to be a girl. So you're not, of course. And and there's the anxiety, absolutely fertile soil there for the anxiety, isn't it? Because if you want the child but you can only have a certain outcome for that child, then. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think you touched on something there, isn't it? And it's quite starkly put when we think about the other being a child. But if we if, when we pin things down, when we try and fix something that is dynamic, something that's alive and moving and vibrating all the time, when we're trying to pin something like that down, what we're doing is we're not allowing then space for the other and that never more. Is that more true than than in that little story that you just told there where where it's a baby, where it's, you know, a kind of fresh life where it's easy to see then, isn't it, that there is no blame or fault on the baby being born male or female, or assigned male or female at birth? Yeah, absolutely. But we can kind of, I don't know, it feels a little bit more like we might be able to garner a sort of. That person did that to me. So you see, they're wrong. And we can gather a lot of people on our side to somehow bolster and justify our rigid positioning. But actually, Elizabeth Gilbert calls up monkey mind if we're going out into the world and we're asking all the monkeys in the tree what they think, then essentially what we're doing is we're just finding out what monkeys think. What we're not doing is finding out what we think. And so, yeah, it feels it feels to me like there's no capacity for the other in that rigid pinning down of a dynamic. And so the more flexibility and nuance we allow in a relationship and like you say, for that to go back to the original quote, that that continuum. Of protecting ourselves at one and protecting the relationship at the other. If we see that as something that slips and slides and moves. Yes. If we see all the ways that we relate to one another as things that are in flux permanently, then we do have the capacity to respond more intelligently and more impulsively. Yes, yes. So going back to the original quote, another thing that struck me was where I get into difficulties is in relations with my own children. Um, which I think the temptation is always to protect the relationship. You know, I mean, I'm not one of these mothers who would be sacrificing anything for my children, you know? Um, which is kind of like a trope, isn't it? That, you know, a mother will she will just drop everything and do whatever for her children, you know, and she's going to turn into this kind of tiger who is probably might turn into the tiger of somebody who was threatening my children. But anyway, um, but that temptation to, um, to kind of like. Okay, well, with my children, I do far more pussyfooting around, if you like, you know, not saying the things that with a friend, I would say, because I suppose in a way, with friends, if you completely mess up the relationship, you can find another friend, but you can't find another replacement child. So you're always in this like, oh, well, I better not say that because, um, and I find I've talked to my friends about this who have children, that they're the same. It's like, yep, I just, I keep my mouth shut, you know, because I don't want to screw things up because, you know, you still want to be the person that they can bring anything to or, um, you still want to make sure you have a relationship. And obviously sometimes relationships between parents and children do break down. But it's one of the, the saddest things, um, one of the saddest things and, you know, one that comes up in therapy a lot that, you know, I have this really difficult relationship with my mother or my father. Um, and, you know, I don't know how to manage that. Um, so, yes, I was it was just really interesting to reflect that, um, with my partner, I was quite happy to go. Right. I'm here. I'm not here, I'm here, I'm not here. But with my children, like, no, I'm here, I am here. You know, there's no I am not here. Um, I wonder if it works the other way too, that as as children that we, you know, I'm going to keep my mouth shut because I love my mum. I love my dad. So I'm gonna keep my mouth shut in order to. Yeah. Not not rock the boat because. Because I love them and I. And I want that relationship. I think I'd like to go back as well to something you said about. It's one of the saddest things. I presume you must have had people in your room for whom the breakdown between their relationship with either their children or their parents, predominantly. I should think it's a child's relationship with their parent, a child. There'll be adult children, but, um, that it's not always. I don't always find it to be a sad thing. There are some times where people have been in my room and indeed friends, and they've broken down their relationship with their parents, and that has felt like a liberation. That felt like a freedom for them. Yes, yes. I mean, I still see it as deeply sad because, you know, you would hope that you could maintain a relationship. But in some places, you know, the parents are just not safe people to be in a relationship with any longer. There's a wonderful book called um, I can't think who it's by mothers who cannot love. Um, and it's very stark. It is, it is. And it's a stark book to recommend people read, because it is. You know, people go, oh gosh, you know, I could only read a chapter because it's so what happened to me? Um, but it's very practical because she goes through all these different sorts of mothers who can't love and then write, what are you going to do about it? And essentially one of the recommendations is that you you do break off the relationship completely just. And then another one is that she calls it, I think she calls it the Tea Party relationship, where you meet very politely and you, you know, you still have a connection, but you're just not going anywhere deep at all. You're not risking anything here. Risking anything. Um, and then there's other ways that are kind of deeper. And, you know, you might you might actually be confronting your mother with some of what's gone on and seeing how how that goes. But no, it's really good. I really recommend that one. Um, and it's called Mothers Who Can't Love I think so, mothers who cannot love. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Okay. Um, so that brings me on to grandparents, actually, because I'm just oh, go ahead, jump all in. Um, because there's something interesting going on with grandparents, inevitably, because of the way society has changed in that so many grandparents are being brought in as as carers for their grandchildren, aren't they? Um, which, you know, like that's gone on for eons. But it's my understanding is it's been more in a context of an extended family where everybody's living fairly near to one another, and it's all kind of quite organic, you know, that it develops. Whereas now there's so much of like, well, the daughter has grown up and she's moved over here where she's met her partner and the grandparents over here 100 miles away. And, and how do we manage that? And then meeting the the young mothers who are hugely resentful that grandparents are not. Well, I'll come and look after the children every other weekend. Um, because of course, the grandparents are like, but, you know, I've just retired. I'm living my own life, thank you very much. So that, like, you know, the expectation from one lot that you will protect this relationship with your grandchildren. They will become your priority. That is the thing. And then at the other end, the grandparents going. But hang on. I need to protect myself because I've been. I've been living a really busy life for eons, and I want I now want some space for myself. Thank you very much. And the tension that that seems to be causing, which I think is, is I don't know who knows, but it feels quite a new thing. I can't remember a feeling around that as a child. Um, that there was this this going on. Um, and it comes into that partly because retirement is people are healthier, people are healthier for longer, maybe. Yeah. So that generation, you know, people are not retiring and dying into ill health. No. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Dying immediately. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe there's something of that. And like you said, the distance that we have a much more exploded geographically. So. Yes. And then applauded society going economic, you know, the costs of childcare, you know, the women going back into work and having to juggle all that and. Obviously thinking, well, surely grandparents could help with this. And some grandparents being. Absolutely. That's just what I want to do. I know there's like, no, I don't want to do the white House as well. Yeah, absolutely. There's friends of mine who are absolutely the grandparent in this situation who are saying, and relatives, my sister in law has kind of just gone through this, that they're in the situation where they want absolutely to be a part of their grandchild's life, but what they can't do is commit to every Thursday between 9 and 4. Yeah. Because then the, you know, the nursery or childcare place that the parents, the mother and father potentially. Oh gosh, why am I even being heteronormative there that the two parents would want to put their child into that that childcare place is demanding. Well, you either pay for five days a week or you pay for three days a week, and that's what you get for the year or the five years or however long you booked it for. And so then the grandparents having to commit like sometimes before the baby's even born. Yes, having to commit to like. Yeah, donating an entire every Thursday for the next three years until the child in school. And then. Oh, and then what happens if there's a second child? Do I then have to do it? And so I could end up dedicating my Thursdays for the next six years to, to 1 or 2 children that. Yeah, that Thursday every week stops me going on holidays. Yeah. That's you know, it's very real. Yes, yes. And they were thinking, well, when I'm retired, I'll have all this flexibility. I can go on holiday, you know, and not have those high costs and you know all of that. And, you know, that's, that's so difficult because you of course, you want to protect the relationship with your children and your grandchildren, but also, of course, you want to look after yourself in your declining years, you know, before it's too late. Yes. And that's another thing, isn't it? Is that social mobility, the idea that people do have the capacity now to go on holidays more and that sort of, sort of maybe more financial. Um. Disposable income at at an older age maybe is different as well. Yeah. Gosh. What do we know about I don't know, maybe maybe you do know about all these factors, but I don't have many people of that generation in my counseling room. I certainly just basing this on anecdotal evidence of people that I encounter in my personal life. Yes. Yes. No, I have 1 or 2. Um, yeah. In that generation. Um, so but I mean, I suppose that also touching on older people, um, I mean, we haven't mentioned the fact that any relationship is at the mercy of death, isn't it? No. And when somebody loses, somebody suddenly what that does to them in terms of attachment, because, you know, there's actually a brilliant article in, um, this month's therapy today about somebody who lost her husband very suddenly and she, you know, she thought she was like, okay with death. You know, she lost her parents, she lost somebody else. She was very close to. And then her husband suddenly dying and realizing. And then what that does to your attachment system, if you like, because it's just gone, you know, it's just been ripped out of you and you're left trying to pick up the pieces. And there was a lovely I've got it here. Hang on, hang on a minute. I brought it up with me. Sure. Yeah. Bear with me. Yes. It says, um, Alan Shore, who writes in Affect Regulation and the repair of the self, writes that it is the secure and safe attachment that is our protection against pathology. So, you know and that's so right, isn't it? You know, that we are having a secure attachment is so beneficial to our mental health, to our physical health. And then the the absolute agony of the rupture. It's just ripped out of you in a sudden somebody who you have that attachment with, um, just dies. Um, but I suppose that's something that, I mean, I'm always it's always in my mind. And maybe because my parents died young, that, you know, this relationship is that you have with whoever your, your, your, your main attachment person is it's not a very good phrase, but anyway, it's it's actually so precious. It's so precious. So, you know, keeping in mind the work of protecting it whilst protecting yourself is so it's so important because you could lose it at any moment. Um, you're talking again about not fighting what is. So if if the tragedy of losing somebody who is your main attachment focus, losing that person prematurely? Yeah. That the pain of that is, is huge. If we then add on top of that, this shouldn't happen. Yes. You know, children should outlive their parents or we should have lived to old age. We should have had a nice retirement. If you're adding that extra element, then you are adding a whole other layer of suffering on top because you're you're then thinking, yeah, why me? Why has this happened to me? On top of it just being the most enormous tragedy that, like you say, you're trying to pick up the pieces off. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so is that a good place to stop? Because it's nearly 11:00? I think it is. We've talked for 53 minutes. Yeah. Lovely. So we'll leave you with the thought of impending death, tragedy and the way that that will rip you apart. But making the most of the present moment with your lovely person. Yes. I like that, Meg. I like that. Let's stay with that. Because that's presence, isn't it? That's now. I like that. Yeah. Don't take anything for granted. No, because the universe could whip it away at any point. Yeah. Meg, just before we do, go tell everybody where they can find you. If if people. Where are you working from? Because I remember all of this, but I'll listen. So I mostly work. I mostly work face to face in Warwick. Um, I do do a bit of work on zoom, and you can find me on my website, Meg Harper. Co.Uk. So that's it. Thanks very much. And you do couples as well as I do do couples. And I really like creative work as well as I'm sort of trying to be more confident about doing more creative work because I am trained and qualified in it. I just, you know, I'm a bit of a wimp. So but if anybody wants to see somebody brought that, yeah, they said, I really want to do some creative work. I'd be really pleased to meet them. That'd be great. Okay. All right. So thank you. Thanks so much, Meg. It's been lovely. Thank you. It's really, really lovely conversation. Thank you. Okay. All right, let me stop the recording. Are you sure you want to stop the recording and.