Emotional Mirrors of the Soul A-Side

Nadine: [00:00:00] You're listening to This Won't Fix You. I'm your host, Nadine Pittam, and this show is a curation of interesting models, metaphors, and images discovered or manifested through my work as an accredited psychotherapist. You can expect to hear nifty ideas, clever language, and thought provoking ways of looking at life.

Nadine: Each episode, you'll get one of two alternating perspectives. First, a conversation which introduces and discusses the theory or idea, and we call this the A side, and then the B side, which, while not therapy, is a deeper exploration of that theory or idea from a more therapeutic standpoint.

Nadine: I'm very, very excited today because I'm joined by our equine practitioner and mental health counsellor, Alex Gulland, who operates from down in the south of England. [00:01:00] Alex, hello. Hi there. It's 

good 

Nadine: to 

be 

Nadine: with 

you. 

Nadine: Thank you very much. Do you want to tell us a little about what it is that you do? Equine practitioner, mental health counsellor, either, both?

Yes, so, well, both really. Um, I trained to be a equine assisted practitioner in 2017. Um, and that was kind of like the gateway to learning more about mental health and counseling and psychotherapy. So, That qualification with an organization called LEAP enabled me to work on a basic level with people with mental health issues.

Um, but it quickly became clear that I wanted to do more. I wanted to kind of go slightly deeper. So over the last couple of years, I've got a qualification in person centered counseling. I'm just studying polyvagal theory, and I'm also just about to start studying polyvagal equine theory, which is going to be quite an [00:02:00] experience.

Nadine: That's a lot of the body in that. 

Yes. 

Nadine: And our subject today, um, Alex and I had a conversation a few weeks ago now, and we tried to, we're looking at what metaphors are kind of relevant in, in the world of therapy and horses, weren't we? We were having a conversation about that and. I've thought a lot since that conversation about all the metaphors there were so many metaphors and things that you were saying and I'm hoping that we can draw those out today because our title metaphor is that horses have been described as a mirror of the soul or a mirror to the soul.

Yeah, so I would say, um, the way that I would describe it is that they're an emotional mirror. to the soul. And that's kind of how we're working with them when we work with them in a therapeutic context. And the reason for that is that they are highly sensitive to everything that's going on around them.

So when they meet us for the first time, they're trying to work out whether we're friend or foe because [00:03:00] they're prey animals. They don't prey upon anything. They, they eat grass. They are, they have to be highly tuned. in the wild to protect themselves. So as a herd, they're connecting with each other on a very kind of energy based level.

And if there is a predator, uh, which is, uh, dangerously near that ripple of energy will go throughout the herd and they'll know to move on. And it's that energy, which still exists in domestic horses, is that energy that I'm really working with. So, um, I'm working with the, yeah, the emotional reaction. of the horse when I'm working with the client.

So they are an emotional mirror, I would say. Right, so we're adding that on 

Nadine: the start, the emotional bit on the start. Yes, yes. I love this concept, because if somebody had told me before I started counselling training, that essentially we are that, as counsellors, we are also a kind of mirror, aren't we? And you're talking about the horses being highly [00:04:00] sensitive, and I suppose part of our training is Encourage us as therapists to become highly sensitive to those ripples, to those energy shifts, to the kind of emotional current that exists in the room.

Nadine: And if somebody had told me that that was going to be part of my job. I might've kind of thought, Ooh, that's a little bit kooky, but I'm not entirely sure I'd have really understood the extent of it. And yet it is the bread and butter of the work is tuning into what's going on in my body, what's going on in my mind.

Nadine: Any kind of thoughts that are popping in are often given by the client without them realizing they're doing it. So you've got this, you, you've got that double because I've just got it with the one person I'm sitting with, but you've got it with the one person you're with. and with the horse that you're with too.

Yeah. And if you, if you think about the way that we look at things, so when we're working with our clients in a room, we're kind of looking, we use our visual cortex and then it goes to our prefrontal cortex to analyze, and then it goes back to our [00:05:00] motor cortex to work out what action we need to take.

With the horse, it goes straight from the visual cortex. to the motor cortex. So what you're looking for with the horse is the immediate, you're almost getting like an honest, it's like having a very honest friend next to you. You've got a really honest reaction coming directly to you from that horse. And so it's my job to know the horse, but to be able to read what signs that horse might be exhibiting and how the client is approaching the horse.

That's what makes it really fascinating. Yeah. 

Nadine: I bet. Did the people know when they come, when, when, hang on, there's two, there's two questions rolled into one here that I'm getting confused with. So let me just slow this down and go to the first one. 

Do they know what to expect? 

Nadine: That's kind of, I suppose, the second question.

Nadine: Because that's like an x ray vision, essentially, isn't it? Yeah. That you've got. You're saying that the horse, you're getting this honest interpretation from the horse. That is [00:06:00] like an x ray vision. 

It is. Yeah, I suppose it is. It's often contradictory to what The client is telling you. So I've had people tell me that they're kind of okay.

Uh, they just want to work a little bit on their emotions and yet the reflection that I've got from the horse is that there's something deeper, there's a deeper kind of, um, depression going on there. So, so yeah, is that, is that what you mean in terms of, 

Nadine: um, I'm, I'm kind of less concerned now with what I mean than what you've just said, because that was really.

Nadine: Really intriguing. So could you take me more into that? So you're saying somebody might come to you. They're saying, I might want to work a little bit on my emotions. And then you send something lurking, something else, something sitting underneath. Can you tell us through what that's like? 

I think it's not for everybody equine therapy.

Some people, you know, have a fear of horses, but for some people it works really well in the sense that if they're not comfortable sitting in a room based [00:07:00] environment, having the horse there, being outside, it kind of, uh, you know, puts it into a different context. It stops the logical side of your brain from working and puts you more into the creative side.

But yeah, so, uh, What I read from, from the horse is really, it kind of goes quite deep actually. So I've had people come to me who have wanted to come because they like the idea of being with a horse. They, they like, they like for some reason the horse's um, face always to me evokes a lot of wisdom and I think that's what attracts people to them because they do look like wise beings.

But um, a lot of people kind of don't really appreciate the horse. Energy that's around them. So to approaching them with, with respect, but also, um, the actual connection that you're having with the horse, it's not, it's not, you can't really dominate in that situation. It really has to [00:08:00] be because we're working on the ground.

So there's no riding. It takes place. You're really working very much on the horses level. And that's the kind of like how you need to connect with them. So you've really got to be aware of, um, body language. So 70 percent of it is. is your body language, and like 10 percent of it is your tone of voice. But a lot of people, when they're first in their first session, there's not much talking.

that takes place. A lot of it is that immediate connection. And as I say, it's been known to quieten down the logical side of your brain and connect with the creative side of your brain, which is all about intuition, creativity, you know, um, and it just stops that kind of chatter that you've got going in your head.

So for some people, it's, it's a very nonverbal. process when they first get into a paddock with a horse and we start kind of having a session. 

Nadine: And that non verbal space will really open people up. 

Yeah. And [00:09:00] that's a bit of a contradiction, isn't it really? Um, because yes, they are opening up in a non verbal way, but when they do start talking, and I've had this quite a lot with people who've experienced, uh, trauma where they've not really wanted to look the therapist in the eye, they will talk to the horse.

They would almost like talk to the horse rather, you know, rather than talk directly to you. So a lot of what they're sharing is directly with the horse. And that's sometimes with adults, but also with children as well. You'll find that children will talk and automatically connect with the horse, have the conversation with the horse, be more open with the horse.

So it's a really interesting dynamic. 

Nadine: And where are you? 

So I'm there, a lot of the time I'm trying to guide, I'm trying to be very non directive, but I'm also observing as well because it's dependent on what issue they really want to work on. And you and I both know that sometimes, you know, your starting point is [00:10:00] never, it's never, you know, it's never the starting point.

You kind of, you kind of go on a long journey, don't you? Absolutely. So it's really kind of working at that, how it helps me because they, open up quite easily. It kind of helps me to identify maybe the areas that they want to work on. So all I can do in those situations is really kind of mirror back to them what they're saying.

So I'm doing, I'm doing a bit of mirroring there, but yeah, kind of like redefining really what they want to work on, what their objectives are. 

Nadine: And you've mentioned mirroring them, obviously the title of the show. It's about mirroring and mirror neurons were only discovered relatively recently was even in the 90s.

Nadine: I think it was only literally about 30 years ago, they're responsible for our recognition of facial expression. And I don't whether, you know, perhaps I should invite you to say something about this, that the mirror neurons that where we see. Something in someone else's face and 

yeah, so I mean I can't really talk.

I [00:11:00] don't I'm probably not as um Experienced as you are in terms of the human side, but I do know that they have done it with horses with the mirror neurons Uh, where they've watched, um, horses, watching other horses, um, that have been given things to do. And they watch, and they watch it being done. So, if you're trying to load a horse into a trailer, you know, you're trying to get another horse to go, you would, you would take them out for them to watch that horse being loaded a couple of times so that they can work out what's happening and they can then mirror that.

So I know that it exists within horses. I'm not really okay with kind of like how it works within us other than my own kind of personal kind of hands on experience really as a counsellor and a practitioner. Yeah, yeah, but that sounds fascinating. Apparently what 

Nadine: I, what I read was that if the person opposite you Then that part of your brain lights up the same part that feels the smile [00:12:00] lights up in your brain, even though you're not smiling.

Nadine: Because you've seen the smile that there is such recognition that we're built so much. We're wired so much for that kind of, uh, mirroring for that recognition.

Nadine: Can you go, I'm going to just pop back at a few sentences to something that you said that I thought I'd like to know a little bit more about when you talked about approaching a horse. For the first time and that it's a non verbal experience and I think the first session in counseling Often the people come in and they tell you everything they know That's session one is this is what I know about myself.

Nadine: This is where I am. This is as far as I've got. This is what I know about my problems, the things that are in the way, what I know about my past. The horse changes that dynamic. I should imagine quite considerably. And you mentioned respect there. I just think that's interesting how a person would approach a horse.

Nadine: They've not got words, so they're not [00:13:00] telling the horse what they know necessarily, but there's some, there's, there has to be a kind of a settling or a respectful greeting. . 

Yeah. So there has to be some kind of, um, ability to regulate their emotions and often the conversation that I will have, I will have with them.

I dunno if other practitioners do this, but I will make them aware of their own energy and, you know, doing that by a simple process of just getting them to rub their hands together and kind of like feel. the energy. So rubbing their hands together really, really quickly and then kind of like feeling that energy to get them aware the energy that they're giving out and then to think about the energy that the horse is then giving out.

And then also explaining to them that, you know, the horse might not be looking at you, but we'll be able to sense exactly where you are through the ability of their energy, which is, you know, they're highly sensitive. So in the first instance, it's kind of making them aware. [00:14:00] And in some instances, I do something called anchoring or grounding, which is I, I will, I will sit with them and I'll sit with the clients and get them to draw in a Mandela circle, all the things that, um, ground them, that regulate them.

So, you know, images, songs, people, places, and really kind of like focusing on. All of those elements that kind of get them into that state of, of, um, calmness or glimmers, as they call them, I believe these days. And by doing that, you're kind of then making them aware of the fact that they can look at their energy as something that they do have the ability to And get them aware of that when they're approaching the horse.

Um, because the horse will be looking to tune into you. So it will try and tune its heartbeat. [00:15:00] teals within four feet. 

Nadine: Oh four feet. Let me just picture that four feet away. So when the horse is four feet away, it is aware of you and is Tuning in. 

Yeah, it knows you're there. So if you think back to um the horses in the wild that was talking about you've got you've kind of if you have a herd of horses and all those Horses that are on the outside of the herd and there's a predator or there's You know, I suppose it would be a lion or a tiger would be five or six feet away and that really, and still it doesn't kind of like give them enough chance to get away, but they have to be able to intuit if there's danger around them.

And that's why they kind of, that's why they don't really analyze. That's why they are. Kind of, you know, they go, so they're not really, they're not really throwing back what they're observing back into the back into analyzation before they do anything. They just, they just react. So, um, what you're making the client aware [00:16:00] of is the power of their own energy.

So, you know, their body language and their energy before they're actually approaching the horse. So the horse, as I explained earlier in that situation with wild horses, are highly sensitive to everything that's going on around them. So they have 15 million cubic meters of energy around them, which is quite a lot.

And that's really kind of like what you need to make the client aware of. And that's kind of, that's the approach mechanism. And sometimes, you know, when I was First, starting as a practitioner, I would have people just march in and kind of, you know, give the horse a good old smack on the neck and say hello to them.

And there was no kind of respectfulness there. Really, that's the same as going up to a stranger in the street and kind of slapping him around the face, really, because you have to approach a horse with that respect because they are fight or flight and they do have the potential to kind of like turn around and trample you so, [00:17:00] so there's um, there's a respectfulness a safety aspect as well so all those things really need to be considered.

before the client starts working with the horse. 

Nadine: Yeah, you have to manage that before you even get the two beings in the same place. 

And no one session is ever the same because the horse doesn't call me up and, you know, we don't really have a chat about how they're going to react. It really is, it really is unpredictable.

So no one session has ever been the same, which makes it sometimes, sometimes kind of quite scary, but also quite magical as well. 

Nadine: Yeah, I should think and fascinating. Never a dull day at work. I'm also interested then about, you said that they don't analyze, that the horse doesn't analyze. And actually we often commend as human beings, our capacity to analyze.

Nadine: It's one of the things that we rate about our species, maybe, but actually it causes us bother because in the analysis, we've got theories, we've got narratives, we've got beliefs [00:18:00] and, and values that have been, uh, kind of delivered and instilled in us over our lives. Hmm. Hmm. And so to have a being that, that kind of skips that phase.

Yeah, 

Nadine: I can see how that that's quite beautiful because it's a purer connection. Is that 

fair? I mean, they say with horses that you kind of, I was watching an interview the other day and it was somebody talking about the fact that you can't discipline a horse, you know, if you're, Training a horse to be a show jumper or something and they misbehave and then you think oh I'm going to lock them in the stable now and they'll learn their, their lesson.

They, they just, they won't be able to make that connection because they are in the moment. They've made the mistake, that's it, they're not going to be able to work out that the reason I'm locked in the stable is because I've made a mistake in, in the panic with the jump. So they are very much, it's that whole kind of, you know, The fact that we analyze, we overanalyze, don't we?

That makes it very complex. They don't, they don't do that. It's an automatic [00:19:00] response. 

Nadine: I'm really trying to hold off asking you to share some case studies because when we first had a conversation you shared some case studies and there was one that, that struck me as an absolutely stunning metaphor, where the horse was at itself, the stallion that you were talking about, became a metaphor for cancer.

Nadine: It was a disease, it was cancer. Yeah. I mean, that's a really beautiful story. Perhaps you, would you mind sharing that? 

Yeah. I mean, I've got his, I use his book every day, actually. It's, um, it's a story which was, um, Um, outlined in the introduction to a book called Zen Mind, Zen Horse by a guy called Dr. Alan Hamilton, who used to be a neurosurgeon, and he retired from that and, um, set up a business.

Ranch and had horses in there that he bred, but he also used them for therapeutic purposes [00:20:00] and on one particular day, um, he outlines, um, a client that he gives the name of Lillian who's come to him. She's in the advanced stages of. cancer. She's been told she's only got a couple of months to live and you know, there's a vigorous kind of radiation chemotherapy treatment that they are about to give her.

She's already very much affected by the cancer. So she's, you know, one of her legs is not working properly and she is very insistent on the fact that she wants to work with, um, Romeo, who's One of his stallions and he kind of he he didn't really know what to make of this. I mean Romeo huge great big stallion in the middle of the breeding season.

He's out in the field very happily cavorting with all the mares the lady horses that are out there a splendid beast, but a handful and especially for [00:21:00] this lady that's been weakened by the treatment but she's insistent, this is what she wants to do. So, I mean, normally he wouldn't put a beginner in with this horse, but there's something about, you know, her, her absolute passion to work with him that appeals to him.

So if you're lucky enough to have a ranch, you'll have what they call a round pen and a round pen is where a lot of work takes place. And so, uh, he got Romeo in, um, and I think if you can imagine this splendid. beast going into the round pen and then he watched Lillian go into the round pen and he said at that stage one of her legs didn't work properly so she was kind of dragging it in the sand.

He was worried that she wouldn't be able to move out of the way if the horse kind of did any kind of sudden moves. But he, he, he watched, he observed, and he, he kind of stayed in a place where he could jump in if he was needed. And [00:22:00] she went into the center of the pen and closed her eyes, and he could tell that she was, um, breathing, she was regulating herself, and she was calm.

calming herself, grounding herself. Um, meanwhile, Romeo's whizzing around one way and then another way. Um, and then eventually he stopped and started to take interest in Lillian and walked over to her, stood next to her, uh, and allowed her to put her arms around him and Dr. Hamilton could see that she was crying.

And then she kind of collected herself, came out of the round pen, and Romeo went back to the field, he took him back to the field, and afterwards she said that she had to do that, she had to work with the horse, that particular horse, because she felt that if she could calm him, [00:23:00] she could deal with What was to come the treatment that was was to come with the cancer and that for him was what was stunningly powerful to put in the, in the introduction to his book, but that's almost the horse directly mirroring the client that as it kind of turns things on it's on the table, but he was.

incredibly inspired by this. She actually, she was given three months to live, but she did last a year. And she insisted on having her ashes actually buried into that round pen. And every morning he goes out there and kind of, um, greets her. Her spirit, but that was a, that to me was a fantastic story of, um, you know, of how, how a horse can help somebody, um, in a very unusual way.

I mean, I, I, I've never heard of anything like that before, 

Nadine: of 

it being used in that way. 

Nadine: I can feel the tears pricking my eyes. It's such a [00:24:00] moving story that she had the, I mean, you talk about horses having wisdom, but she had the wisdom that she knew she was facing something not only could kill her, but was going to kill her, something that had power, something that was 

uncontrollable in a way, you know, and he, I suppose was representative of all of that to her.

Yeah, that's a very powerful, very powerful story. Um, but great book. And, um, you know, he's written a couple of books. So if anybody wants to go out and read more about how he works and what he does, he talks a lot about energy and chi in all of his books. 

Nadine: Just remind us of his name again. 

So he's Dr. Alan, double L, A N, Hamilton.

And the book is um, Zen Mind, Zen Mind, Zen Horse. 

Nadine: It is a stunning story. I feel like I need to put a bit of a pause in so that people can kind of digest it because it is such a, and it's a metaphor, it's a stunning, stunning story of of one woman's courage [00:25:00] and and of the connection between That human being and you kept referring to Romeo as a beast that 

it 

Nadine: just bridges that there's two different worlds so beautifully and it sounds like he was clearly very moved by the story as well is.

Yeah, 

Nadine: such a stunning story. 

I think to be able to, um, To be able to regulate herself in that situation was obviously the thing that the horse was then curious about. Once he'd kind of burnt off all his energy, he came in closer to kind of connect with her. So it's kind of like, it is very much about what you're putting out there, what the energy that you're putting out there, the calmness that you're putting out there.

Nadine: Okay, so horses have curiosity for the other person. If there's enough stillness in the other person where the horse isn't frightened, the horse will 

Uh, I think they're naturally, they're naturally curious. And you'll find a lot, um, with the horses that I work with, um, that [00:26:00] be, you know, they'll be trying to Horses do this strange thing of when they're trying to check things out, they'll kind of drop their head down so that they can kind of get their sight because obviously their eyes are on each side of their head.

So there's a blind spot in the middle of their, in the, in the middle of their, um, and their head. So to be able to look at things, they drop their head down, but yeah, they are naturally very, very curious animals. If they're allowed to be, if that's not trained out of them, if they're allowed to be. What does 

Nadine: that mean?

Nadine: How, how is it trained out of them? 

Um, I mean, I think you can get horses that are, that work purely as a herd of therapeutic horses. So they're not ridden and they don't have to go through that discipline of, of, um, you know, schooling and, and, and having lots of different riders on them, which is, that's a very different approach to working with horses.

Whereas the horses that work as a lot of the horses that I know that work as therapy horses, they're not ridden. They're not kind of, they're not [00:27:00] asked to do impossible things. They're not asked to do dressage. They're not asked to jump jumps, you know, all day. All they are asked to do is be a horse. 

Nadine: What does that do to you when you, when you think about that, when you think about a horse just being, because you, you must love them.

Nadine: You must be, you must have loved them for years. 

Yeah. No, I think in a former life I probably was a horse. I think, I think if I went into past regression therapy, that would be it. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I remember growing up and I was, an incredibly anxious, um, child at school, always walking around with my hood up, thinking it made me invisible.

Um, 

Nadine: was it not? 

It was a bit like, who killed Katie? Did you ever watch South Park? Who killed Kenny? That was me kind of like with big eyes and the hood up. And I thought that was some kind of protection. So I was terrified of everything apart from horses. And they were kind of like, [00:28:00] that's when I felt I wasn't being judged.

And that's where I felt comfortable. So for me, being with horses or being around horses or just the smell of horses is my kind of, that's my way of, of regulating because I do, I, I do think that they, they are incredible animals and are capable of more than we give them credit for. 

Nadine: Tell me about the limits to that capability then, in terms of um, therapy, I don't know whether this is now speaking ill of, of your, your colleagues as such, um, but it's something that I'd like to do in all the episodes really, is talk about the limitations of the metaphor that we're talking about, why does it, why does it not really work, is there, and is there a limit to the mirroring, is there a point where, I don't know.

Nadine: it feels like it's plateaued or does any, does my question make sense? Is 

there any, is there, is the question, um, did the work, [00:29:00] the work that I do sometimes plateaus or it's not effective? 

Nadine: More, more specific, not the work that you do, because I'm sure that then you'll have other strategies that you employ, but, um, the kind of, the idea that the horse is a mirror, does that kind of have, um, Is there, I mean, how do you know that you've reached a kind of ceiling of what the horse can do?

I think because there's lots of different exercises that we do throughout the, we normally do like six or eight sessions. So there's lots of different things that we do. You know, if we were to just. do mirroring all the time. It'd be slightly, be slightly boring. So the different exercises that we do are good for both client and the horse.

So one of the exercises that I've been trained to do Is something called the journey and the journey is something that you normally do at the end of sessions with people, you know, when they're coming towards the end. So, because [00:30:00] obviously endings are really important in therapy. Um, and what we ask the client to do is build a course within.

Within the paddock or menage that we're working in. So four elements, um, so not, not huge, great big jumps, but maybe some poles on the ground, some cones to wind in and out of, um, you know, different things that are easy for the horse. and the person to navigate. Um, so there are four of them and we ask them to name those, the four different things that they build, four different issues that they have in their life.

So, two we say, you know, try and have at least two in there that you want to work on or that are still possible. Um, after, after the therapy, or that you'd like to continue to work on with more therapy, have, you know, two of those, maybe an [00:31:00] ongoing issue, um, and then have two positive elements, but always ensure that the course is, um, structured in a way that you end on a positive note.

So, when I did it in my training, I picked. One of them was leaving home for the first time. Another time was my mother's death. Um, another time, um, was, uh, when I set up my first company and another time was a quite a traumatic car accident. And I structured it kind of like all around the school and what you're meant to do is walk within those obstacles and almost visualize what is going in, what is going on for you within either that trauma or or that issue that you've resolved.

So you stay there until you've kind of really processed it and you stay there with the horse until you've processed it and go on to the next step. [00:32:00] Next, the next session. 

Nadine: Help with the process there, with that pausing. 

It's quite strange, but that what I found and when I witnessed it happening is that the horse won't actually move on until they feel you've processed it.

So if they feel that there's still something else there, they will. They will stay there. And there's normally a reason for that. It's either the person subconsciously wanting them to stay or it's just not being resolved. But having to, you know, physically kind of like walking through it and go through it, going through it with the horse does help in the processing of it.

So, and that's quite a complex exercise. As I say, we do that towards the end. of the sessions that we do. Um, and then we do other things like, um, horse painting, which is painting, um, symbols onto the horse. Um, so don't completely cover the [00:33:00] horse in paint, but it's like when two or three symbols, and it could be a, a, a runic symbol or a Native American symbol.

We have a whole variety that we give. Um, the client, um, to look at and then they can choose which one they feel represents them for the past, present and future. So the horse is kind of like divided up. So the hind quarters of the past is tummy is the present and the shoulders are the future. And again, something like that is again, you know, helps to people, helps people to process things.

Nadine: Again, that's a metaphor, isn't it? Because the horse is kind of representative of a person's timeline. That's right in front of the person. They can see past, present and future and the horse is kind of wearing it. 

Yeah. And also it's kind of, you know, it's, it's a nice, you know, It's a very creative thing to do.

It goes back to the Native Americans who used to always paint their horses. I don't know if you remember in the cowboys and Indian films, they used to have circles around the horse's eyes, but they would, [00:34:00] they would paint their horses. It kind of goes back to that. So it does kind of have a heritage, but yeah, it does, again, it's really helpful for those people that can't really express themselves verbally and sometimes just need that little bit of, uh, of a, you know, a little bit of a help to kind of get them to open up something like that could, you know, start a conversation about something, um, an issue that they've had or something that they've kind of, um, kept hidden.

Nadine: I'm now curious about the kinds of people that would seek out therapy with an equine practitioner. 

I don't think there's one particular type, um, and I don't, I don't think they really know what they're looking for. When they come to us, when they come to an equine practitioner, but I think they are definitely looking for something different.

And I think that people are, I know before I started learning about therapy, I just thought. It was therapy just came in a box called [00:35:00] therapy and that was it. I didn't realize there were all these different modalities and all different types that you could do. Um, and I suppose, you know, for a lot of people, they kind of approach therapy like that.

I don't want to work in a room. I want to work outside. It's kind of understanding really how the therapeutic process works. So, in a way. I suppose it's unpacking the therapeutic process in, in quite a good way and opening them up to other types of therapy. Hopefully they might want to go off and do, you know, CBT or something else afterwards or, you know, art therapy.

Nadine: But there's a curiosity then in the person is what you're saying. Yeah. Somehow we're drawn. Yeah. They might not know why you might not know why. 

No, I don't, I don't think there's any demographic. Um, any particular type? 

Nadine: I wonder if as well, some of it's about just even knowing that it exists as, as, as a thing that somebody [00:36:00] could choose to do.

Nadine: Cause certainly had I known, I perhaps would have sought it out. 

Yeah, you still can. 

Nadine: I still can indeed. I absolutely still can. 

You're still trained to be one. 

Nadine: That's 

just. 

Nadine: landed in my head for the first time.

Nadine: Um, I kind of, I don't know. I wish that way back in those early days when, when I was less comfortable with language, that I could have had that because I always loved the sort of the outdoors. I always loved animals, always loved animals. Yeah. And that would have, you know, I can totally see how I would, it would have opened me up in a completely different way.

Okay. So there we've, that's the demographic then, isn't it? That's, I think it's you, see people like you and people like me. Um, because you just described a little bit of, you know, how I was when I was growing up where I couldn't really, I didn't feel comfortable with other people, but I felt perfectly at home being outside and being with animals and being with horses.

I think, I think that [00:37:00] probably, is some kind of a demographic. I don't know if nobody's really kind of put a label on it yet, but um, yeah, maybe that is, maybe that is, um, part of the kind of like the primary target market for it. 

Nadine: Yeah. And how beneficial it would be for somebody like that. 

Yeah. 

Nadine: You must have some, um, success stories from your work.

Nadine: You must have, A few instances that, are there any that you can share or would like to share? 

Um, so there was one other experiences quite early in my career. When I was working, I was working with a Spanish horse, uh, who, um, had come over, he'd come over from Spain, not on his own, but he'd been shipped over, um, and he'd been trained to do dressage in Spain.

But he wasn't good enough to do dress shows, but he'd been traumatized in that whole process of the, of the training. [00:38:00] Um, so he had a few scars on him of, of, you know, the various ways that they attempted to train him. So I was working with him and he was quite, considering what he'd been through, he was a really, um, sociable horse.

It's about 17 hands high. It's called Taranto. It's Andalusian. And I'd been working with him and another horse, uh, called Rocky and Rocky kind of, to me, represented a very grumpy Yorkshireman. I know a few of those, but he was just kind of, you know, he spoke, he speaks as he finds type thing. He didn't stand for any nonsense, you know, he didn't, he didn't want any messing around with any kind of reflective grooming or anything like that.

It just. It just, if you were going to connect with him, then just connect directly with him. But particularly with the Angelusian horse, Taranto, I've been working with him and I had a client that came to see me who actually came with one of her [00:39:00] teachers from a pupil referral unit. Their, their headmaster at the time, um, who was really forward thinking, he brought this young girl to me who was about 12.

She'd already tried to take her own life, really had problems kind of connecting, you know, just what we were saying earlier about that difficulty that, um, we've both experienced connecting. So while, when we tried to do the anchoring exercise, the drawing of, um, images and places and people and things that might help to regulate her, if she felt herself kind of becoming unregulated, she had nothing.

To draw at all. There was nothing. And when I asked her about that, she said it just doesn't matter. Just doesn't, you know, she just didn't want to kind of exist, it felt like. But she got a real, you know, fantastic connection with that horse. So she wasn't [00:40:00] very tall. And this horse was very big. And he was naturally a very curious, sociable horse with her.

So he kind of, you know, You know, he, he really kind of connected with her, as I say, um, and the simplest of things, um, simplest of processes that we went through with her was to get her to walk with her head up because she hated being outside and being, uh, in a environment with lots of people. She would automatically put her head down and avoid eye contact through that.

But she learned, she had to walk with her head up because she had to look where the horse was was going. And the horse knows if you put your head down, he will kind of meander all over the place. It's a bit, when you're on a horse, you've got to have your head up as well. It's the same when you're leading them.

You've got to look at the point that you're going. When you've got there, you've got to look where you're going next. So you've kind of got to pre plan your route. So along with, um, you know, doing a little bit of horse [00:41:00] painting, a lot of what we did was simply walking with the horse, with her next to me.

And towards the end of the sessions, She was more or less leading him on her own. And at one point towards the end, I just kind of, I'd loosened my grip completely. And I said to her afterwards, I said, that was, you know, that was all you, Dan. He was following you. I wasn't doing anything there. You were actually leading.

And she was, she, I think she kind of knew it and she'd kind of, she'd kind of got into it and she really connected with him, but for her, she kind of With that positive visualization, that image to help her regulate when she is in that environment of lots of people around her, you know, she can think, well, you know, I was strong enough to actually lead a 17 hand horse, so I'm probably strong enough to kind of like, you know, get to the end of the road and go to the corner shop.

And just being able to visualize that quite powerfully in [00:42:00] her mind. hopefully helped her move forward. And 

Nadine: you say, hopefully, so you, you don't know people leave us and we never know. 

They go, don't they? They don't, you know, that's the endings are so important to clients, but it can be so difficult for us as therapists sometimes.

Nadine: And you mentioned two horses. You, you mentioned that the Spanish horse and the grumpy Yorkshireman. So do you, do you have lots of horses that you have in Access to that. You and you're choosing different horses for different people. 

Yeah, so where I've worked, I've been really fortunate that I've worked, um, with people who have horses.

So, um, that in that particular case with those two horses, their owner wanted that, the horse to have those connections, you wanted them to be socialized. Where I work now is at a, a therapy farm. Uh, where there are about 20 [00:43:00] horses, um, so some of them are used for riding, but some of them are used for, um, therapy purposes.

Nadine: How do you choose? What sorts of things do you consider when you're making a choice? 

Sometimes it's good to let the client choose, um, you know, which horse they want to work with, because, and again, that kind of gives you a little bit of insight into the client themselves, depending on the horse that they want to, they might want to choose the horse that's out there on their own, grazing by itself, or the one that's the leader of the pack.

It really kind of, um, Yeah, it does help to kind of, if the client can have that choice of which horse that they want to connect with, because that will reflect, it kind of reflects on where they, where they are. Sure. 

Nadine: I can't believe I even asked the question. As soon as you're answering, I'm thinking, well, of course you'd let the client choose.

Yeah. 

Nadine: You might offer some input, but that, that would be, yeah. Why wouldn't it be the decision? 

If you, if you can do that, you know, if you have a [00:44:00] herd and you can do that, that's, that is the best way of doing it. But if some people just work with one horse, 

Nadine: I presume you get to know that horse incredibly well and how it responds to different people and the stages that a horse would go through as it gets to know somebody.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Nadine: So you tell, tell us where you are. 'cause I said you were in the south of England, which is just a massive part of the country. So tell everybody where you are. So 

I'm based in how you work in Essex. Um. I, I work out of a place called Silver Birch Animal Therapy, um, so there are lots of other animals there as, as, you know, donkeys, sheep, um, cows and pigs, um, and that's in Lyon Sea, uh, in Essex.

Um, so they do some great work there with, uh, young people and obviously they do all the equine therapy stuff, which I do there. 

Nadine: I'm, I'm delighted. The conversation has been absolutely I mean, it's been lovely, but it's also deeply fascinating for somebody on the outside of it. It really, it really is. I've been [00:45:00] talking about our initial conversation with friends and family and I was quite blown away when, when I first heard.

Nadine: You speak about it and, and yeah, it was genuinely moved. So that, I feel like that's kind of come through again today. It's just such a, it's a beautiful thing. 

I think for anybody that's interested in, in doing it, um, leap do like a half day, well, it might be a full day actually, but it's like a taster. 

Nadine: Oh, right.

Nadine: Okay. And so they just, 

they come along, you know, you don't have to have experience. With horses at all. That, and in fact, you don't have to have any of that to do the training itself, but they just kind of give you a little bit of a, of a taster of, of, of how it works, but yes, it would be nicer if it was, um, no more regulated, but more accessible to people.

Nadine: How do you, how do you feel about the horses? Do you have, do you have favourites yourself? 

I love all of them. [00:46:00] 

Nadine: And they're different, so it's like a class of kids kind of thing that you would like all of them but for different reasons. 

And I'm going to try and use the word which I can never pronounced, but I am guilty of anthropomorphizing.

So I will put personalities onto them. And I have to pull myself back. Is that like 

Nadine: the Grimper Yorkshireman? Is that? 

Yeah. Yeah. Or what are they, you know, just kind of, yeah, I will kind of give them like human personality, people that I've known, personalities sometimes. But yeah. Do they not, 

Nadine: I mean, they must have, um, certain ways of behaving traits.

Nadine: Like you said, that there were certain. The grumpy Yorkshireman, and the Spanish horse, you said, despite the rather brutal training that he'd had, did you say? Yes, yes. But actually, he was really friendly, he was still a very friendly horse, very sociable. Yeah, 

and how amazing is that, that he still trusted. I think you find that a lot with horses that they're still trust, because you [00:47:00] know they're big animals, they don't have to do what we ask them to do.

And yet they still trust us. Um, so That's 

Nadine: what moved me just then when you said it. Yeah, wow, you don't have to do that. 

Yeah. 

Nadine: This is a privilege. Thank you so much for contacting me. Thank you so much for coming on. 

for talking to me. I could talk forever. So, 

Nadine: well, I feel like I could as well. I've got so many questions, so much curiosity.

Nadine: Thanks for being with us this episode. The B side, which takes one aspect of this episode and digs a little deeper into how that might be explored in the therapy room, will drop very soon. In the meantime, if you'd like to have more of our conversations and metaphorical excavations, it would be grand for you and grand for us if you would subscribe to the podcast or share a favourite episode with a friend.