Hello, everyone. Welcome to today's episode, which is going to explore what frozen and maybe other fairytales. Maybe other films too can teach us about what it is to be human. And especially shame. Of course, that nugget creeps in everywhere, does it not? Uh, how we try to, in the words of Elsa from frozen conceal, don't feel the parts of ourselves that have been dismissed or ridiculed or criticized in our past. So for me, uh I've got a few ideas about that. But I'm going to introduce our co-host today, and this is Anoushka Beasley. Hi, Anoushka. 

Speaker 1

[00.06.00]

 Hi, Nadine. 

Speaker 2

[00.06.02]

 Thanks for coming. 

Speaker 1

[00.06.04]

 I am so excited to be here. I can't tell you. And and some of that is about you. And a lot of it is about frozen. 

Speaker 2

[00.06.12]

 Are you a little bit of a mini geek? I, 

Speaker 1

[00.06.14]

 I'm a fan, I really am. And, you know, there's something about, um, animated films that actually scare me, that I'm not really into them. I find them tragically sad. Um, and I try to avoid watching them whenever my children call me. But frozen it frozen was. It was very. It was something different. It was something we weren't used to. And then and it really kind of tapped into the to the zeitgeist. It was, you know, a global phenomenon. Um, you know, I think maybe fifth highest grossing Disney movie, um, 20th highest grossing in the world. And there's there really, really important reasons for that. Um, so yeah, I love I love it. 

Speaker 2

[00.06.59]

 I'm already curious to dig into what it is that you're saying and what it is about. Yeah. You guys, what it is that sort of, um, interested us. But before we get there, would you mind telling people kind of a little bit about who you are and what you do? And, uh, maybe later on we can say where people can find you? 

Speaker 1

[00.07.17]

 Yes. So, um, I'm a psychotherapist. I work, uh, like, on a private apprentice in London, and, uh, I, I kind of come into this world. Probably because I was, you know, from as a young child. Very interested in how we relate to each other and, and how we make sense of being in the world. I always found being in the world not that easy. Um, so I think that it it kind of led me here. I didn't know the things before that, um, but but but it led me here. And, uh, there are some specialisms that I work with. Um, I work in with trauma presentations and a lot of family relationship presentations. Um, and I my identity, which is obviously a really big theme in frozen, um, 

Speaker 2

[00.08.17]

 one family relationships. This shame arises from a family dynamic, doesn't it? 

Speaker 1

[00.08.22]

 Absolutely. Yeah. Um, okay. Uh, we'll come back to the end to find out where it is that people can find you out. As far as I can see, you're on directories, but we'll we'll come back to that later. Because. And there's also more to say about what it is that you do and have done over time. And that might come out as we talk. So thanks again for coming. So for people listening, then, what it is that would be useful for you to kind of know about what the angle perhaps, that I'm coming from and I don't know which angle Anushka's coming from. So that'll be interesting to hear at the moment. Is it. Um, so I kind of understand it in terms of the narratives that are spun about us. Yeah. When we, uh, when we're young, particularly. But I think this can be throughout life. Can it? But the narratives are spun about us end up becoming something that we react to against. Um, and so for Elsa, she's trying to respond to a narrative that has been spun about her, and it leads it to isolation. It leads it to shame. And, uh, but it's not necessarily just I mean, clearly people don't have superpowers. So it might be useful for people to think more in terms of 

Speaker 2

[00.09.33]

 anger. Maybe you've been told that you're angry and and so you try to suppress your anger, 

Speaker 1

[00.09.39]

 uh, most of the time as you go in about life. And of course, the more you suppress your anger and where you conceal your anger, the more it builds up. And so then it does burst out in the end. And actually you then do appear to be an angry person, even though actually you're trying to work against that, you're trying to retaliate against that. And the same can apply for any kind of narrative about us, as I see it, anger, chaos. Maybe you're deemed sensitive, or it might even be a positive thing. We might be told that we're problem solving, or sensible or really good at being a communications department for the family. Um, or it could be something even more kind of brutal. Like we might be told that we're smuggle spiteful or ungrateful, and these things then become narratives about ourselves that we react against. That was kind of my understanding. 

Speaker 2

[00.10.25]

 Um, but at least my angle. Where are you coming from? Well, it's. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel like, you know, despite me starting off by saying, you know, frozen was something new. It was something unusual. I suppose I want to contradict that now and say, you know, this is nothing new. You know, these are core, primal emotions. And, you know, we're born with them, um, this, this, this thing that society, you know, the society that we live in, um, how how it makes us feel, how it shapes us again. That's not in you. Um, you know, we've been dealing with this, you know, since humans have have been dealing with each other for, you know, forever. So, um, you know, even this particular movie, um, is adapted from a Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale, The Snow Queen. Um, you know, where there was a mirror and and it shattered into a million pieces. And actually, it was a mirror that was created by the devil to to diminish goodness and magnify evil and realize it shattered. It kind of lodged little pieces of of the mirror into humans and into the psyche. And, you know, then they went around and they, they saw equaling each other or in themselves and it and it and it affected how they lived. And so there's, you know, again, you know, we are retelling, returning the same story here. Um, but but we are we are hopefully learning something new about each other and about ourselves and all the way. And what I meant earlier about the side ghost is that, you know, there's something about frozen being, you know, a metaphor for how important we are realizing mental health is and and the fact that we're talking about it. Yeah, 

Speaker 1

[00.12.21]

 right. And we've not really had conversations like this before. So openly prioritizing it, understanding the connection between our younger selves, um, what happens to us as children and how that impacts us as adults, the kinds of choices we make and the kinds of lives we lead. Um, so, so, yeah, as we respond to those shards. So I find that fascinating that. The shards that exist in that have been sort of pierced and that we think that they're evil, this notion of the devil, that they come from the devil. 

Speaker 2

[00.12.59]

 So we do all have evil in us. I mean, that term. No, I'm not even going to say that I'm going to take that out because it's not, is it? It's not. It's not evil. But the fairy tale presents it as evil, as a way to access the darkness that exists within us. 

Speaker 1

[00.13.14]

 Yeah. I mean, you know, fairy tales have been in existence in so many cultures. I mean, you know, maybe there is a culture out there somewhere in the world that is not very tales, 

Speaker 2

[00.13.25]

 but I don't know, um, 

Speaker 1

[00.13.27]

 I it's, it's, um, and the reason that they, they exist in all of these 

Speaker 2

[00.13.32]

 different cultures is because 

Speaker 1

[00.13.34]

 they are a psychological tool for, for children to try to understand the world and, and understand themselves in it. So, yes, this idea of, you know, we kind of go into different kinds of conversations around, you know religion and, and the meaning of life and what else is out there. But, you know, in terms of this word evil, which is obviously a very strong word. Yes. There's something about acknowledging all of our different parts, acknowledging what what it means to be good, what it means to be bad, and and also. You know, the the polarizing nature of these words, you know, good and bad. Mhm. Um, you know, and, and how that in trying to teach children about how to, how to be in the world, we, we can, we can um, we can really give them the wrong idea about, about how to see themselves and how to see others. And we see that and also we see that in the how split literally she becomes in, in fearing the badness within her and um, and fearing as if, you know, she's going to hurt Ana, she's going to hurt her family and you know, the town that she lives in and, um, and the isolation that she ends up, um, plunging herself into in order to, in order to keep her badness away from others, um, with the belief that there's no goodness in her. 

Speaker 2

[00.15.06]

 Because she does actively doesn't she walk away from her parents? She actively pushes her sister away, and then she creates this big ice monster, doesn't she, outside the palace. So there is, you know, the big kind of marshmallow man type thing that scares everybody away. So that fear that she's got of her own badness becomes aggressive and becomes and and injures people, doesn't it? It be it then becomes a sort of a weapon that she can't escape from. She's ends up being trapped by her own fear. 

Speaker 1

[00.15.36]

 Absolutely. And you know, so, so often in, in, in therapy sessions I will say we're not we're not here to blame the 

Speaker 2

[00.15.45]

 parents. You know, that's not that's not, 

Speaker 1

[00.15.47]

 that's not you know, the aim of this. But but we are here to acknowledge what has happened and, and you know, these the prime the family is the primary group. And there's so much, there's so much that goes on that, you know, there's so much potential for love and for healing and for support. But it's also, ironically, the place that we can be shamed in, in, in, in the most damaging way and the place of the first hurt and, and maybe the hurt that we then carry around with us like that ice shard, um, not not understanding the impact that it has on, on on who we are, who we want to be. 

Speaker 2

[00.16.32]

 I want to ask you another question on the back of that 

Speaker 1

[00.16.36]

 about 

Speaker 2

[00.16.36]

 how we heal that, because the film presents Anna as being the. It's love essentially that heals it. And, you know, there's something kind of quite contrite about that because it's a kid's film. But, um, but certainly from my experience of being in the therapy room, it is love. People can be therapy and kind of say, uh, this is my soul. Is it? Okay? And then it just needs a kind of a revisiting, a sort of a healing and a and for somebody to see that shard in us and to accept it and love it. And I don't know what I'm curious about what your perspective is. 

Speaker 1

[00.17.12]

 Yeah. I mean, it's funny, isn't it? Because love is that word that is, is in every single, you know, it's just it's so it's so all encompassing. The songs that we sing and the movies that we watch. And yet, you know, it's so easy for us to say, oh, it's a little bit tried to think it's going to fix everything, but but I completely understand why. Why you why you'd say that. Um, maybe because it feels as if. How can it be that easy? And I guess the truth of it is it's it's a really painful journey, actually. Um, and and that is why, um, is that's why people are suffering. Because it's, it's actually really, really difficult. And I think what, you know, one of the things that frozen, um, the frozen did that was different, was it put the emphasis on sibling love rather than romantic love. And that was something that, you know, I think a lot of people were very happy about. Um, and, and I guess. You know, the the criticism of that is, well, what if you're an only child? Um, what if you know what if you don't have a brother or a sister? You know what? You know what then? And and I guess in terms of healing, you know, you're right. It is akin to a movie. And. But the next step from that is it's self-love. That's the real love that that that's actually, that's that's what's going to, you know, in, in the story, the sibling love is what melted the lump of ice that Ana had in her heart. And and that saved her. But actually, yeah, one step on, um, it's self-love that is able to do that. And, and that's what is going to bring the healing 

Speaker 2

[00.18.53]

 and the therapist's role in that, because the therapist is part of that journey from seeking the external, uh, healer to being able to heal yourself, being able to soothe yourself accept yourself. The therapist plays a key role in that journey. 

Speaker 1

[00.19.13]

 Yeah. I mean. I mean, I think so it, um, there are obviously a lot of different kinds of modalities of therapy out there. Um, you know, a long time ago, you kind of have that very kind of one person's psychology, you know, Freud in the chair behind, you know, the person, you know, on the couch and they couldn't see each other, and you didn't know a thing about your therapist. Um, and, uh, you know, it was it was it was quite kind of there was a lot of there wasn't a huge amount of emphasis put on the relationship. And, and I think we've what we've come to see over time is that actually love is about connection. And, and it's the pain of disconnection that we are suffering from. And and so yes, the, the therapist's role is, is, is very important in that because that is what facilitates a different perspective. The client is perhaps in an ideal world able to see that. They they are lovable that they the the goodness. You know, coming back to the movie that that that whatever their whatever beliefs they might have grown up with, whatever stories they would have told themselves or their families might have told them that actually, you know, that their self-worth here and, and that that relationship that they're having with their therapist is, is starting to melt some of those blocks of ice that, that, that kind of, you know, have, have kept them leading these limited lives, perhaps, you know, um, making these kind of unconscious choices. Um, 

Speaker 2

[00.20.59]

 so the therapist, without their own agenda that enables the authentic in, in the, the client want of a better word and the person who is suffering, it's the lack of the therapist's agenda that enables that authentic to to come 

Speaker 1

[00.21.14]

 forward Ideally I thought I did anyone I mean, I suppose I suppose you go you go to your therapist hoping that they'll have. Um, hoping that they'll have an agenda which will which will be, um, an exploration and and and an and a perhaps a space where you're going to meet together as people, you know. Um, you know, I like I like to say to my clients, um, you've come to me because you, you know, this is what I do. I'm professionally trained and and, you know, you're you're hoping I'm gonna I'm going to know something, and I get that, but I'm I'm working alongside you on this journey, and we're going to be doing it together, you know, and, and I think it's really important to, for the, for the, for my clients to know that because sometimes there can be a hierarchy and, you know, in the therapist and and again, you know, obviously, um, you know, that's what I do myself at the job, but, you know, I there's there's something around, um, the therapist has the potential to step into that role of, um, of of of the family. Um, and so it's actually really, really important that the therapists check themselves and the therapists understand that, um, this is a situation where shame that this is the this is a very vulnerable place. And, uh, and that shame can be reinforced. It again, it it can be reactivated because it's actually a very important position that the therapist is, is in. Um. You know that. You know, there was a part in frozen where, you know, during Elsa's coronation, um, you know, she was looking up at the the painting of her parents who had, you know, they died at sea earlier on. Um, but she's repeating, you know, um, you know, she's repeating the lines of the song, you know, don't, don't feel conceal. And there's there's something around, you know, the, the legacy of of of her father, even though she's not around anymore and her wanting to to do his bidding and, you know, her wanting to please him and her wanting to, you know, fulfill this, this role that, that, you know, this agenda that he had set for her. Um, so, yeah. So, yeah. Do you know, I'm not notice that because the mother doesn't speak much, does she? In fact, I don't even know if she speaks at all. Is the father who gives her the gloves? It's the father who says, yeah, conceal. Don't let people don't 

Speaker 2

[00.24.06]

 let people see it. It is him, isn't it Well, 

Speaker 1

[00.24.09]

 yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, we're going to have to have a whole different session made to go into the absent mother element of this movie. I mean, she was not getting all at all. And I was thinking, where are you? Why are you saying something? But, um, yeah, you know, it's it's it's the father and, you know. That's, uh. He gives her the gloves, actually. Yeah, absolutely. And and and the and the gloves element is actually really, really interesting for me because it's, uh, obviously she does it, you know, to try to help her keep her powers under control. Um, you know, when you think about it, you know, if the woman can turn the entire country to ice. What the hell are these? I don't know, 100% cotton gloves Im going to do. Really? 

Speaker 2

[00.24.58]

 Oh, she's royalty to be silk. 

Speaker 1

[00.25.01]

 Yeah, but. But it's actually, you know, in in America, gloves are slang for condom. Um, so there's something about him giving her the gloves and and and putting it on and and and her being, you know, what that means for her sexuality, what that means for her potency. And and these gloves actually representing, you know, something that is, um, really locked down here. Um, and the and we see, you know, when she takes the gloves off and, and then that kind of climax during the song, you know, we see her hair full and she's suddenly in this, you know, stunning, you know, dress that, you know, everybody loves, even though she's got waist size of a hula hoop again, that's another show. Um, but but really, you know, she starts to, you know, she starts to break free of all of that. So, so yes, it's she's really breaking free from the father is 

Speaker 2

[00.25.51]

 a sexuality that emerges again, not spoilt, but as beautiful. 

Speaker 1

[00.25.55]

 Yeah, absolutely. I like breaking free from, you know, that patriarchal that that father energy, um, you know and yeah. And again you know, these these are the, these moments in our family, you know, when we're growing up, this is, this is where we learn the most about ourselves. And so, you know, this has been this has been out there. You know, she's been put out there in the world and not lender, you know, a thing about her sexuality. Whereas Ana, you know, in comparison is opening every door literally, you know, and, you know, basically engaged, you know, within 24 hours. So again, there's something here around the sisters, very different attachment styles. You know, Elsa may be leaning towards more of an avoidant attachment on a more anxious attachment. This um, there's something here around the and again, the splitting, you know, which is very common in families, you know, with, with siblings that one will do just completely the opposite to the other, you know, and often it's an unconscious sense of, well, I'm you know, I can see how that's worked out. Not very well, you know, on the other way home. I'm glad that you brought Andrea, because I think she gets missed, didn't she? In 

Speaker 2

[00.27.15]

 in the 

Speaker 1

[00.27.17]

 sensational awakening of Elsa, we we don't kind of pay much attention to Anna's development and Anna's maturity. 

Speaker 2

[00.27.27]

 And, yes, I'm really glad that you brought her up. 

Speaker 1

[00.27.30]

 Yeah. I think, you know, I mean, often in movies, we need that other character to to flesh out the main character. But, yes, you know, we we can we can miss what they're all about and their story. And they often have a very important story. And, and I think that, you know, if we're looking at this, you know, as a metaphor for, for mental health, but it also kind of, you know, why it's touched so many people, why it's been so popular for children and adults. And, I mean, there's there's something, you know, um, there's something about Elsa being able to speak so, so openly about about the fears that control her and about her struggle and not wanting to be controlling by those fears anymore. But there's also something really lovely about about Anna, you know, um, in, in in how much she wants to connect to her sister. How in, how much she wants to connect in the, you know, she's, um, she's had a she's had a little incident as kids do, you know, they they play and they rough and tumble and and, you know, it happens. It's completely normal. But instead of explaining that to the children, the parents, you know, take her to the trolls, they wipe her memory. Um, quite a 

Speaker 2

[00.28.48]

 drastic course of action, isn't it? 

Speaker 1

[00.28.49]

 I think so, but, you know, um, and then we have actually what I feel is the real trauma that begins. And that's the isolation between the sisters. That's the separation between the sisters. It's the thing that we do with what's happened. And that's where the trauma and beds, compounds. It's the families. And yeah, like you said, the trolls are kind of complicit in that, but which I think raises questions, doesn't it, about the, you know the I don't know, the wisdom of the healer being something that's questioned, although they do notice that they point out, don't they, that fear will be her enemy. And that turns out to be true, that it is fear. 

Speaker 2

[00.29.29]

 Of her own power. Of her own? Yeah. In eight. What did you call it? Sexuality. And it's that. That they that they noticed right at the very beginning. 

Speaker 1

[00.29.40]

 Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm assuming the trolls don't have that many other options in terms of making money. So I'm going to just, you know, they do what they do on that side. But absolutely they did. They did they did specify, you know, they they did. Absolutely. You know, tell her that. And but I think, I think it's really the, the fact that the parents didn't just sit the sisters down and explain this, that this is just a normal thing that happens. And so in that moment, you know, Elsa is basically that she's she's given that she's given that baton that she's now going to carry for the rest of her life. You know, you can hurt people. And when you do these, these drastic dramatic situations occur. And, you know, and when we have trauma, you know, it does affect our memory, which I think, you know, is the connection. There You know, um, it does change the way that we remember things, um, the, the that we, you know, we we block things out. That's what the brain does, you know, the brain to protect us. You know, it's it's wonderful in that way. Um, it, it blocks out the, the terrible thing that, that we've experienced. Um, and so, so that's, that's what, that's what happened there. But but yeah, it's it's it, it leaves Ana then trying to find love anyway anywhere she can. Um, and it leaves Elsa just completely alone and isolated. Um, and, uh, and and. Yeah, just kind of. Defended. You know, that these these ice particles, you know, those are those are her defenses. 

Speaker 2

[00.31.20]

 Mhm. Yes. And how sharp they are when she's angry and when it's out of control, uh, the way the film presents them as all those aggressive shards I think is again, it's a very beautiful, simple metaphor, but I think it's, it's lovely. And Ana goes towards, I think that that. Yeah, that anxious attachment, avoidant attachment that Anna is the one that goes towards Elsa and she keeps going and tells us she loves and keeps saying, I, I why didn't you tell me this? Truth was it was it would have been okay if you've not kept it a secret. And she keeps going and keeps going until that final wounding in the palace. 

Speaker 1

[00.31.59]

 And 

Speaker 2

[00.31.59]

 then then there's a kind of retreat, isn't that? There's a sort of sense of, uh. Oh. Um. Yeah. I've been mortally wounded now that that I've gone so far to try and love you, Elsa. And this is the final wounding. And it's that point, then, where her decline starts, that she loses her kind of joy and her confidence in it. And what I mean, not neither joy, no confidence, I mean. A commitment to the relationship. She she kind of turns away at that point. You know, the injury is a sort of metaphor for that. Would 

Speaker 1

[00.32.28]

 you? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, and I don't know that I, I was confused about that point, in fact. Can you, can you enlighten me? So. Did Elsa do that intentionally or was that another accident? I 

Speaker 2

[00.32.40]

 think it was an accident, wasn't it? I mean, she was angry. She was like, get away from me. You cannot love me. I am unlovable was essentially what was going on. Ethan. And yeah, she sort of flung her arms out 

Speaker 1

[00.32.51]

 and I think 

Speaker 2

[00.32.52]

 she actually firing it at that. Those two men, the baddies weren't there with their facial hair. Yeah. And and despite how sharp those shells were, she still wasn't able to impale them. Yeah. Which I think I think had a lot to do with the fact that it was a PG, really. But I think she 

Speaker 1

[00.33.10]

 should have asked about that shot. But anyway, 

Speaker 2

[00.33.12]

 um, well, you want to see an 18 certificate frozen? 

Speaker 1

[00.33.16]

 I mean, I think, you know, sometimes I watch these movies and I do, you know, it's like that. Where's Wally? I want I want to run as many adult themes as I can into this despicable piece that everyone's about while the kids can't tell. Um, no. Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, I think it also brings up, as you know, as much as I do love this movie and and there are so many reasons that I can connect with it, it does bring something up around. You know, that power that the that we have inside us? Um, how how we deny it, how we suppress it? Um, you know, what the the the fear that people have around emotions and, and so there's, there's something here around, you know, and I think it was Christophe that said, I thought she'd never heard you. And I said, well, I was wrong. Um, you know, I just, uh, you know, my heart. My heart just sinks when when I hear her say that. Because actually, like you say, we've we've had honor keep going to Elsa for the whole movie, you know? Please, Elsa, please answer. And then she finally, when she's all grown up, says, but I understand now. You don't have to rescue me anymore. You know, I'm thinking about the drama triangle here. You know, we don't. You don't have to protect me anymore. This doesn't all have to be on you, Elsa. You know, and and it feels like. Yeah, this is this is that moment where actually they can do it together, you know? But it isn't. And, uh. And Elsa, Elsa's, Elsa's emotions. Um, you know, I mean, you know, this Cordell, she's been. And she's been locked up, you know, for most of her life. And she's carried this cross of Bad Messiah pack, and, um, yeah, she lets rip and she hurts her again. And, um, and I think, yeah, this again, there's this, this metaphor of, you know. What will happen if I'm angry? You know what will happen to me? What will happen to others? What will happen if I'm sad? Um, if I if I acknowledge the emotions that I'm feeling. If I show them to other people. Um, you know, there's a there's a real fear, you know, in, in society and, and, and often in families around the emotional body and, and, and it's just, it's just who we are. You know, this is this is who you know. We cannot separate our physical bodies from our emotional bodies. You know, we are that is part of how you know how we exist in this world. And so there's something really, really important about that, I think. I absolutely love what you're talking there about about the power. There's a line, isn't there, in the Let It Go song where she says, my power flurries through the air and into the ground. My soul is spiraling and frozen, fractals all around it that I absolutely get what you're saying. And there's so many. There 

Speaker 2

[00.36.19]

 are. There have been quotes said by famous people that I now can't remember in full about. Yeah, it's the power inside you that you are most frightened of, because if you connect to all those feelings and we can see why people don't connect to the feelings, but if you could just connect to them, 

Speaker 1

[00.36.34]

 it's terrifying to think what we would be capable of if we saw our emotions as data about the world, rather than this thing that I can't control this. This terrifying thing inside me that is taking over me. If we saw that instead as as data, I feel like 

Speaker 2

[00.36.51]

 that's a really, really empowering position. But at the same time, 

Speaker 1

[00.36.57]

 from a personal perspective, I have been on the edge, on the precipice of letting something in or letting it out. Either way, whatever, you know what I mean by that. And feeling, genuinely feeling, not knowing it's not in your hand, but a feeling that if I let this in, I'm going to kind of die. It's not literal death. It's not. It's like I said, it's not a sort of an intellectual thing, but but I've definitely been on that precipice and thought, well, if, if this, if I can't let this if I could, if I let this in. 

Speaker 2

[00.37.29]

 I am going to die something in me and be overwhelmed. I'll be swept 

Speaker 1

[00.37.33]

 away. And so I can understand why we don't. I absolutely understand it. And at the same time, I know that that is a precipice that we have to, 

Speaker 2

[00.37.42]

 um, submit to. We have to throw ourselves over. Does that make sense? 

Speaker 1

[00.37.46]

 Well, I think I think you're tapping into something that, um, you know, that's that's a that's at the nexus of of everything, really this, this kind of the human fear of annihilation, um, you know, which is. Yeah, that is, you know, there's so much here around, um, as as fear of literally, um, annihilating Anna and, and her parents and that, you know, um, you know, when, when, when her powers are first discovered, um, people assume that they're dad because they're in shock that, you know, the town themselves are in shock. And instead of, you know, looking at, you know, what, this this girl is doing this, this amazing gift that she has, um, they do what? You know, what people do, sadly. And they the it's it's their fear of something that's different and they demonize it, and they and they, they push away, you know, they project their own fear onto her. Mhm. Um, you know, if, if, if only they were to just have taken five minutes and thought, oh, wow. She can, you know, make an ice rink and, you know, that's great. You know, you know, we love this girl. You know, she couldn't. And she was very young. Um, and there was something there around, you know, her needing to be able to, you know, to have help with, with understanding, you know, her gift and be able to talk about it with people who would be able to, um, have some guidance with it because she didn't know what was happening. So, yeah, there's, there is there are these, um, you know, these very, very strong forces here around around our own personal power and, and how we can live in the world, you know, uh, accessing our personal power in an authentic way, uh, where we don't have to dominate or subjugate another person. Um, but but but we're actually. You know, living in alignment, you know, um, and, uh, and then the opposite to that, that the fear of annihilation, you know, this power is too much for me or, you know, um, it, you know, it's or I'm not enough, you know, for for this power, um, again, you know, there's something around imposter syndrome, you know? When I think about that. 

Speaker 2

[00.40.09]

 How? Impostor syndrome. 

Speaker 1

[00.40.12]

 Um, there's something around, you know, this. You know, conforming doesn't always have to be a bad thing. You know, there are there are ways sometimes that when we conform, we can have benefits for us. You know, you know, Elsa, you know, she's she's going to be a queen. I mean, you know, it's not for me, everyone. It's not for me. But, you know, you could say, um, you know, that there might be elements of that she she might enjoy. You know, um, there are benefits to to conforming. But when they, when, when conforming then means that you are pushing away, suppressing, repressing parts of yourself when you're living your life for another person or a group of people and, and it's not authentic, you're you start to that's where the imposter syndrome starts to come, you know, because you're not you're not living authentically. You're not you're not living your truth. And so there's this sense of. Am I enough? Where do you. Where does that you know? What is that about? You know, it's it's about basically not being able to to say fuck it. Really. It's not being able to to say, this is, this is, this is my life and, and I'm going to and I'm going to live it the way that I, that I want to do it. And so again, you know, I think about the themes of resilience. You know, there is often, you know, a journey that we have to go through where, where we do have to, to rail against things. We do have to we do have to come up against difficult times and, and, and we do have to build ourselves, um, a robust enough skin so that actually that resilience can take us to the next to the next place where, where, where we're living a little bit more authentically where we're, you know, we're where we're making the decisions for ourselves and not for others. 

Speaker 2

[00.42.22]

 And if I can stitch together the two things that you said, because it's our connection to the body that tells us whether we're being authentic or not. That if we can sit quietly and tune in, 

Speaker 1

[00.42.35]

 because I think the word authentic is a word that we use so much insight, we even use it now about food, don't we, that we go to an authentic Thai restaurant or something? Well, you know, what does that mean? But if we're talking about the our emotional self, then that's a quiet place that we have to go to, isn't it? To find that and it's a connection to body. It's a what feels warm, what feels like. I mean, we're trying to essentially tune in to what feels right for us without the noise of everybody else's opinions around it. And, and I think just to string together the two things that you said about our connection to bodies being such an important part of our ability for to find a kind of contentment, to find a peace, because that's what we get when we are living within our own power like that. You say it's not a power over people, and 

Speaker 2

[00.43.21]

 it's not a dominance. It's not a subjugation either. Um, you're absolutely right. It's a connection to self that that is the fertile soil for those decisions. 

Speaker 1

[00.43.32]

 Yeah, yeah. And it's reminded me of, you know, that lyric, the storm inside of me, you know, how do we how do we quiet that storm. And, you know, there, you know, we talk about things like meditation, um, you know, walking in nature journaling. You know, we, you know, I feel like we talk about things like that more than we ever have before. Because we are, we are understanding that there is a real need to quieten the storm inside of us. There is a real need to absolutely to, you know, and it's great that you mentioned the body because, um, you know, it takes me to Ana's hair color, um, you know, turning gray, you know, when she has the ice in her heart and, and as she has throughout the movie, actually, it goes and it goes whiter and whiter, and you know, that it makes me think about summarization and how, you know, when we when we don't, when we don't live in an authentic way, when, when we when we are suppressing, but when we are repressing emotions, it finds it finds a place in our body to become physical pain. Um, and, uh, you know, we see that a lot. Um, and, and GPS are actually starting to recognize it in a way that they never have before. And they're hearing about their, their patients physical ailments. And, and and they're saying, okay, well, you know, why don't we book you in for some counselling? And people are making connections between the emotional body and the physical body and, and sensitization as a, as a real thing. Mm. 

Speaker 2

[00.45.13]

 This is amazing. And Ashley, you are fabulous. Can I just say, it's just so lovely to talk to you? 

Speaker 1

[00.45.20]

 Well, you know, I can honestly say that, you know, I was I was excited, but I was nervous to do this, this podcast as well. And it's funny because I was with all of my different parts, were coming up thinking, you know, well, you know, well, what if you forget something and, um, you know, I don't know, um, what if you swear or, you know, all this, all this kind of, you know, which is which is why I kind of texted you earlier and says, okay, 

Speaker 2

[00.45.44]

 um, that 

Speaker 1

[00.45.46]

 tends to happen a lot. Um, so, you know, this this this way of, um. How are we seeing. Yeah, how how do I want to be seen? Um, how how easy is it for me to be seen? Um, and, you know, this is, um, this is an eternal struggle. 

Speaker 2

[00.46.07]

 And can I go back to something you said earlier, which kind of supports that Um, that idea that you just said there is an eternal struggle. It's something that we all have because. 

Speaker 1

[00.46.17]

 Unless society changes and we can't. It's a slow, slow. It's a big ship to turn around. It's a slow process of change. Like you say, GPS, just about. Even though research has been out for years about the link between mental health and physical health. So it is a slow, slow process of change. But until we change society, then we end up with it with a nested system of referred shame. So you talked about the community of Aaron Arundel 

Speaker 2

[00.46.43]

 County living. The society shames Elsa. Like you said, they don't see that she could turn it all into an ice rink. But she, as she does at the end, that create these beautiful fountains and fabulous ships and the snow and ice. And so you get a nested referred shame. So when she first causes the injury, when they're little children, she's devastated. And the parents don't respond in a way that, like you said, normalizes that. So she's got her own shame. Then the shame of the family on The outsider and then society shames her on top of that. So there's no reprieve. It's she feels herself. It's compounded by a parent, it's compounded by society. And so it's no wonder that that psychotherapists have a job is it's no wonder that we have an endless stream of people coming to us saying, I'm struggling because how to hold on to that? Because we're talking about a really small kernel of truth that exists, a light inside us all that most of us struggle to connect to. And it's not surprising, is it, when we are in these families and in these societies where. This kind of monkey mind of how we should be. This yes, of conformity, set of rules that we have to abide by. It's not surprising that people struggle 

Speaker 1

[00.48.03]

 to trust, 

Speaker 2

[00.48.05]

 and they think of themselves as being flawed fundamentally. Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, there's. There's something about Elsa. You know, she tries to so hard, uh, not to show not not not not to show what she's feeling and not not to cry. And, um, and so I've heard so many children, um, respond to that, you know, um, vocally, you know, why can't she cry? Um, and that's kind of nice. It's kind of nice to know that, actually. You know, there's a generation of kids that don't have a problem with that, you know, that feel like it's it's not a big deal if you're going to burst into tears, but, you know, but they're asking the question, you know, and and the fact is that. You know, there there are, there are these this, this, this sound idea that, you know, maybe crime suggests weakness. You know how many Hannibal people have, you know, been in situations where they where they've heard, you know, you're not going to see me cry or, you know, you made me cry or there's just there's something around what is actually such. 

Speaker 1

[00.49.17]

 And it's actually quite clever thing, you know, you feel sad, you know, the body sends water out of your eyes. I mean, I think it's, it's it's quite genius, really, you know, but there's something around, you know, how it's viewed that the, the, the perception of sadness, you know, um, and there was another movie, you know, inside Out, which, again, did very well, but, you know, you know, by Disney where sadness was the anti-heroine, you know, um, obviously some body issues there with her being portrayed as a chubby, fat kid in glasses. But again, not another session, but that still, you know, the fact is that we recognizing, you know how important sadness is, how important it is to express what happens when we do, um, and yeah, yeah, yeah. And 

Speaker 2

[00.50.04]

 all sorts of emotions is I think you're right. It's not just sadness that we, um, denigrate in our society. I think I think anger in some circles is allowed, but certainly not for other people. But. Traditionally women, uh, you don't feel anger. And I think also we conflate then anger with aggression. And we can play anger with violence when actually, you know, they're not necessarily are they that. And I think all our emotions, if we feel any of them in any intensity, it's that that we're shying away from. 

Speaker 1

[00.50.36]

 Absolutely, you know, at the beginning of the moving day and we've got these men and they're chanting, I mean, so, you know, it's a great scene. I love it as a 

Speaker 2

[00.50.44]

 scene. The ice. But 

Speaker 1

[00.50.46]

 the ice, you know, and they, you know, they've got these big icebreakers and they're basically talking about Elsa and they're talking about how, you know, they're scared of her power. And, um, you know, you know, later on, you know, she actually, you know, her her power is is so, um, so forceful. It affects the economy because that's, you know, how they how they, you know, make money and how they sell us. 

Speaker 2

[00.51.10]

 Right? And so, 

Speaker 1

[00.51.12]

 I mean, you know, this so there is, you know, we can see how, how a woman's power is viewed, you know, also in this movie and we can see the double standards and we can see that, you know, um, a man is allowed to, to have this power. Not a problem. And he can have a family. You know, in this movie, Elsa has to make a choice, you know, it's power romance. She can't have both. You know, all the other has the romance. But also, you know, she's a queen, right? So, you know, she's got to give one of them up. You know, we don't we don't see men in that way. Um, so, you know, there's, you know, there's there's a lot here, you know, again, you know, with the, the way that a woman's power is viewed, um, and, uh, you know, yes, I, I, you know, she, she ended up being the queen. It would have been quite nice if maybe she wanted it. I don't know leave Arundel will do a PhD in fairy tales or just, you know, advocate for herself, you know. So there was something about the fact that she ended up she ended up, I don't know, doing the right thing, um, you know, conforming to a certain degree. Um, but yes, that, you know, the a woman and a woman's power and, um, and what it means for a woman to show anger and, and, you know, until, until the 1950s, you know, women were being actually, you know, locked up, um, you know, it's absolutely horrific for them to say, but, um, because, you know, if their hysteria, you know, was seen as some kind of mental illness, um, they were angry. They weren't expressing themselves. They they were, they were showing emotions. And, um, you know, there is there's a very that's very specific way society views that 

Speaker 2

[00.53.01]

 And you mentioned earlier about the doors and so women's literal entrapment, like you say, the sort of imprisoning incarceration of sorts, isn't it. Um, before, like you say, before the 50s. 

Speaker 1

[00.53.12]

 And, you know, 

Speaker 2

[00.53.14]

 in the film, doors are there everywhere that have been trapped, cut off, shut off. And as the media is, the opening song isn't there between her and Hans, with her flinging all the doors open and running in and out of doors and sitting on windowsills and, uh. But but Elsa can't. She stands at the party, doesn't she? In the absolutely statuesque way, in that scrappy little weasel town man comes and asks her to dance, and she can't express joy. There's just this kind of contained frozen, isn't there? Part of her, but a character that can't move? 

Speaker 1

[00.53.49]

 Absolutely. Yeah. She's, um, you know, in in some ways there is a, there is a development or a stage of rebellion. I, you know, that that teenagers go through and obviously, you know, it's like you say it's trousers movie. And so, you know, um, there's something around how you know, it goes with that, put that point in our lives where we were pushing the boundaries and Red 

Speaker 2

[00.54.17]

 rebellion and the we have 

Speaker 1

[00.54.19]

 to do that. And it's a it's a really important stage in our development. But beyond the suffering. Becomes so agonizing that f n leads to isolation leads to this. This sense of being frozen. Um, you know that there's something wrong here. You know that that that there's that something that there's something that that that spin. Yeah. And and I feel like that, that way of, uh, stigmatizing people and, um, has been something that we have been living with and ignoring for, for a long time. Okay. Yeah. Okay. 

Speaker 2

[00.55.05]

 How are you doing? Yeah. I'm good. I'm glad. I, um, you know, it's just that so much here, isn't it? It's just it's such and rich, you know, this is such so, so much. Cousins are, um, you know, for myself, um, you know, for the, for the kids, I see, for the work I do, um. You know, there's, um. There's something about, you know, I did a film degree, um, and, uh, so I, I love, I love film, I love, I love how it how it helps us, you know, I find it in your office. I'm incredibly healing. Um, so 

Speaker 1

[00.55.47]

 I'm remembering Carrie. I'm remembering Jackie. Yes, 

Speaker 2

[00.55.51]

 I remember, I remember 

Speaker 1

[00.55.53]

 well, you know, you say that, but, you know, she was she was tormented as a teenager. She was frozen 

Speaker 2

[00.55.59]

 to the spot. 

Speaker 1

[00.56.01]

 And, you know, when she was when she was in the shower room, um, and, uh, and then, you know, at the end in prom, she was also completely frozen as she kind of wreaked her demonic revenge on everyone, you know, that had that had her. And there's, you know, I think that's the very extreme, you know, of of when we don't have someone to talk 

Speaker 2

[00.56.25]

 to, when we don't have an outlet. The 

Speaker 1

[00.56.27]

 mother had to. To heal that pain. And, um. And then we can't let it go. 

Speaker 2

[00.56.35]

 Sounds like you're having your kitchen refitted, but then you say you're in Paris, and as there's something going on outside of you. Is it 

Speaker 1

[00.56.43]

 something? I know I can't hear anything. I think there's a 

Speaker 2

[00.56.46]

 whole whole mighty banging going on outside. Oh, God, I'm so sorry. Let me just start in the last ten minutes. Five minutes maybe. No, she was just saying some. I mean, Carrie as a film. Oh my God. Um, 

Speaker 1

[00.56.59]

 yeah. 

Speaker 2

[00.57.01]

 Yeah. Is there anything that you want to say before we 

Speaker 1

[00.57.05]

 stop 

Speaker 2

[00.57.07]

 anything that you've not said? We do need to sort of make sure we let people know if they can find you, if you've got a website, that sort of thing. But aside from that, is there anything else you want to say content wise? 

Speaker 1

[00.57.20]

 Lesson that you haven't said and and yes, but um, just that just that I think I suppose I just want to say that it's, it's it's not easy. It's not easy. Um, living it's not easy doing what we do. And, um, it takes a lot of courage and a lot of bravery to be able to. To look inside yourself. And, and I think, um, people are wanting to do that and they are wanting to do it, um, more openly than we have done it before. And 

Speaker 2

[00.58.02]

 I think that's really interesting because the because it's a film and it all has to fit into a 90 minute schedule. The moment where Elsa walks away, it looks like this huge moment of liberation. Um, but what you don't get is the fear that will have been inside her as she does that at that. And if we talk about real people, that, that precipice, that point where we say, you know what? No, no more of that. I don't need to be that good girl anymore. The point at which we it's not a cliff edge, is it? It's not a decision to suddenly shed, um, all the expectations that other people have had of us. It's not a cliff edge, and it's not a necessarily a sort of an instantaneously joyful and liberating process. Actually, that is the scariest point, the point where somebody realizes and in fact, certainly my experience sitting in the room with 

Speaker 1

[00.58.52]

 people. 

Speaker 2

[00.58.54]

 It's the point of the most despair for them. Yeah. Is the point where they realize that they can't do it anymore, because at that point they are facing what they think is annihilation, to use your 

Speaker 1

[00.59.05]

 word. At that point, they think, I have no choice. I have to be me. Do this thing that is me, speak my own truth and body, my own power. And at that point, that is when for the person sitting opposite me, they are in the most terror. Absolutely. For me as the therapist, that's the point where I feel a kind of hope, because that that then feels like, okay, now, 

Speaker 2

[00.59.30]

 now we can tenderly rebuild. Now you realize how important you are 

Speaker 1

[00.59.35]

 in this, 

Speaker 2

[00.59.36]

 and I find it 

Speaker 1

[00.59.38]

 always the most moving part of anybody's kind 

Speaker 2

[00.59.42]

 of, I don't know, time with me. And, and I think where I'm sitting is opposite somebody who is so courageous to have brought themselves to that point, to have made the call to be sitting on the sofa of basically a complete stranger. And I'm aware in that moment that they may have. They may not have known anything about their true self. It might have been buried under years of conditioning, but they're starting 

Speaker 1

[01.00.17]

 to become aware of it right then and. Hmm. 

Speaker 2

[01.00.23]

 Yeah. And that's a slow and painful, deeply painful place to to then start your journey. I'm going to use my journey from, um, and the film depicts it as this moment of celebration, which it is on so many levels, but it doesn't feel like that. It isn't that moment of. Yeah. So flaunting 

Speaker 1

[01.00.46]

 expression. Yeah. 

Speaker 2

[01.00.51]

 I know it has been an absolute delight. Oh my God, it's been so lovely this year. Um, do you want to just tell us where folks can find you? So if because you do online therapy as well. So people don't necessarily have to live locally to you in London, is that right? 

Speaker 1

[01.01.05]

 Yeah. That's right. So, um, yeah. So my, my website is Mandalay Therapy. Um, and uh, yeah. Um, that's me and de la y therapy, um, and, uh, absolutely in person or online. Um, and um, it's been it's been lovely talking to you and indeed it's been a, it's been really fun. 

Speaker 2

[01.01.32]

 I thank you so much for joining me. Uh, 

Speaker 1

[01.01.35]

 I hope to see you again soon. Take 

Speaker 2

[01.01.38]

 care. Bye, love. Bye. Okay. I am gonna now stop 

Speaker 1

[01.01.44]

 our, 

Speaker 2

[01.01.45]

 um. Let me just check how I'm doing it. Right. Okay. I'm going to stop the recording. So we should still be able to hear each other. I do not stop recording. Are you sure you want to stop recording? Confirm.