I'm Fundamentally Flawed - A Side

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Hello everybody. Thanks for joining us. Today I'm joined by Katie Bunting. Katie is a personal development coach who runs the Revival Community. It's in Cornwall at the minute, but plans are afoot for global dominance. You're going to take over the world. Is that right? Would you want to say anything about yourself?

Is there anything you want to say or plug? Where can people find you? Um, on social media, Facebook or Instagram as myself, Katie Blunton, or, and there is a private Facebook group, uh, which is just Revival Community, um, which is free to join, just request, um, and that'll come through to me.

The issue that we're going to sort of introduce today is shame, which sounds kind of quite intense really. Um, but like Brene Brown always says that we all have it. So what is shame? It's essentially something that we think makes us bad or makes us kind of unworthy of connection in some way. Uh, and everybody has [00:01:00] it.

We all have shame. And I think so much of shame could be reduced if we were able to, and the phrase I'm going to use a lot today is stick a flag in it, if we were able to somehow own the thing that we think other people should be ostracizing us for, then actually I think we'll be free of it, we'll be liberated from it.

What do you reckon? Yes, a lot. And with all the women I work with in coaching, you see it a lot, or them skirting around the subject of it, um, to kind of hide it, when actually what they're wanting to say is, I'm a friend afraid of X, Y, Z, or I'm really scared to talk about X, Y, Z, because they feel ashamed of whatever that subject is.

You say that the women skirt around it, so you're saying it's there anyway, it's kind of coming out, it's seeping out, people It can't help but let this part out of them because it is essentially a kind of something authentic you do want to achieve it is there is something kind of Underneath that's true.

And it's so it seeps out all the time. Is that [00:02:00] what you're saying? I Think so even because the example that I'm thinking of in my head is women in relationships or if something's failed like a marriage or a divorce and they like they can be really clear that they're happy the marriage is over or that it's the right thing but what they are actually struggling with is the shame of it failing in their eyes or that they failed so they won't say that bit that actually I just hate that it didn't work and I couldn't make it work because then that's I think the bit where people are really hurting the bit that's their emotion it's not the situation as such always.

And so how does somebody kind of get to a place where they can own that? Talking to people. I think, I really do think it's key that people find people that have either been where they're at, been in the struggle they're in, or they've overcome it, as Brené Brown really greatly says, choose people that can bear the weight of your story.

So people that won't think it's too much what [00:03:00] you're sharing. Um, and they'll just understand, so it sounds like just any other topic. It can sound like normal that you're talking about it. So people feel that they cannot bear the weight of their story, that people cannot bear it, that it is too much, that the pain that they're felt is just too much, and other people will judge them for, for the truth of it, for the enormity of it?

Yeah, I think so. Cause I think if people, some people did admit, I'm just so ashamed that I couldn't make my marriage work. It wouldn't work. I really like this example. It's quite commonplace. A lot of people have experienced, if not divorce, then, you know, a significant relationship breaking down, whether that's a friendship or an intimate relationship or indeed parental relationships.

And people feel then that, yeah, in some way they have failed. I think there's something a lot, I do a lot of work with friendships. in my consulting room as well and a lot of people feel that they can't leave friendships, that if they have a friendship that's not necessarily working, that they should just do more, they should somehow be pushing more or working harder or something.[00:04:00] 

Yeah, that they're at fault. Yes, they're at fault. Yeah, that there's something inherently wrong with me. Yeah, which is shame, isn't it? In all its glory, it's that I'm bad, I'm bad, I'm wrong. I'm fundamentally floored with this and I can't bear that if people knew it or saw it. And let's introduce this notion of sticking a flag in it, which is kind of today's metaphor that, and actually these women, if they could stick a flag in it, yes, I had hope for this marriage.

I embarked on this relationship with all the hope and all the joy of a new relationship. And then, and then it failed. And how you stick a flag in that, means you have to own all that hope, all that loss of hope. And, oh yeah, it is, it is so much more than just, just saying to somebody, I got divorced.

Because you have to, you have to kind of own, I tried, you have to own your effort. And like you say, you have to own the failure of it. And there's something about, everybody fails, and yet we all try and hide our own failures from other people. And [00:05:00] yet there's something about the common humanity, I think, that touches me in this whole process, that if we can just share where we fail, then that actually connects us to other people, because other people like.

To see that other people have failed. We like that in each other. It warms us to each other, doesn't it?

I think when you said it's, it's really warming to share it with other people because then you, It helps remind you of just that it's the, it's the human condition that we move through these things like that We do fail at life. You don't always win. Life just doesn't work that way. So we're the same for relationships or friendships.

It's just how life is supposed to be. You lose things, you gain things, you move through sadness, you move through happiness. And I think if you've shared when a relationship or a friendship has broke down, when you speak about that and you realize, Oh, everyone's kind of going through this, like every day in the world, how many people are going through a breakup of some kind or, um, [00:06:00] thinking they've grown apart from a friend.

It's just universal. And I just think that's I just think that's how it, like, soothes your shame, because you realise that life, every moment, every emotion is fleeting. Situations, phases of your life change, and it's normal. Really normal. Yeah. And my vulnerability, my saying the thing that I've struggled with, and my sticking a flag in that struggle, then that is an invitation to you, and you will share a little something, and then step by step we get closer and closer.

Yeah, and I think, you know, the cliché that you liberate others by you owning whatever XYZ is, like sticking a flag in whatever, not only do you, if you own it though, you teach other people. Sometimes when I'm in my workshop, someone will say something and the other woman doesn't even know she's feeling the thing until it's in front of her and someone voices it.

So I think by really owning the thing that you're, you think you're ashamed of, you, you genuinely do. You [00:07:00] give someone that like a gateway to something they hadn't even acknowledged. And if we can dig deep and actually that's when, if you're living with a bit more purpose to think, actually, I'm going to share this, I'm going to be vulnerable and be who I am because I will help so many more people.

You just do. So rather than actually, because I think there's some fear that maybe by me sticking a flag in who I am, I'm kind of being a bit audacious and getting myself in the way of everything. But actually you're saying that the opposite happens, that when one person sticks a flag in who they are, it doesn't cast a shadow on someone else's self.

What it does is it invites the other person to kind of go, Oh, let me put this flag in who I am too then and, and let's meet as real people. I don't know. 100%. I think so. Yeah, it gives people permission to do it, which people need often, I think, especially these days, people are a lot more fearful, I think, and anxiety, depression, all those things are rife more than ever.

So I think when you stick a flag in it, I think it [00:08:00] just, Invites people almost to want to join in because they want to belong so even if it is part of a movement as such or a Owning of something they don't want to they at least feel they belong in it and I think that's another interesting layer that if we the alternative is what we Pretend that that part of us is not real or we so we don't share our divorce or we don't tell people how sensitive we are or we perhaps don't tell them that we have a Neurodiversity, or whatever it might be, we don't tell people that, and then what happens is people form a relationship with that kind of fake version of us.

Yeah. And so then we can never bring out the real version of us, because we're forming relationships all the time through this kind of ambassador version of us that we're sending out that's like some kind of ideal version. And actually, if we could send out the real us, then people meet the real us, and so they can connect with the real us.

Yeah. I think if people don't stick a flag in where they are, then they don't get what they want, they don't get what they need, people don't get met. People don't get seen. So it's [00:09:00] like we disappear even more and so that that then feeds the shame as well So it's like we're stuck in a vicious cycle It is and I really do think you end up like you just said you end up becoming this other version of yourself But for a long period of time, that's where I think when you suppress yourself again and again and just You know dull stuff down or suppress it or hide it entirely you do end up becoming A really numbed out version of yourself, and you're not conscious at all.

And I think, like, the repercussions of that are worse, because you end up drawing in things then that, they're not aligned with you at all. Drawing into your life, you mean, that your life then attracts that? Yeah. Yeah, because rather than admitting the truth, you, you know, you put up a persona of things, or maybe a fake strength.

Um, so you attract different people, so like you said, your needs then are never met, you're never seen, because you're pretending to be something or, yeah, pretending to, well, you're not acknowledging something that's true that's going on for you, and I just don't think anything good ever comes from that, [00:10:00] unless it's for short bursts of time.

And I think, like you say, that if you do that over time, then you end up, surely that, that mask that you put on becomes more, it feels more you, so it's not actually then possible to get to what is true and authentic underneath that, because you're so used to it. putting the mask on every day. Oh yeah, and I think it was, I think was it Jim Carrey once that described, because he's had a really long, well a lot of his life, I think, um, with depression and stuff, and at the bottom of that maybe his own shame around things, but he described depression as when you're needing deep rest, that you exhaust yourself.

You, you can't pretend that long, and then I think that's why people burn out quite a lot. They're, pretending too long, too much. and hiding things that become too much of a weight. And then you get breakdowns. It just escalates then to places where it's not as easy to just go, Oh, at the minute I'm really struggling with.

Yeah. Because the authentic self has to come out at some point it has [00:11:00] to, and if it doesn't, then it will drive you to bed. It will drive you so deep underground that if you can't be that, I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about gay people, like back when homosexuality was illegal and how. They couldn't squash that.

That is not a part of themselves that they could shut down. And so, you know, the strength it would take to sort of go out in the world and be that, to stick a flag in being queer or whatever, I think that will have taken, and I think it still does actually, um, take a certain amount of confidence. And I think Jim Carrey, that idea that, yeah, it's deep rest that you need.

What you need is rest from that pretense, rest from that act. I was thinking as well about Emily Nagoski talks in Come As You Are about, about this in terms of sex as well, that if you go into a sexual relationship or a sexual encounter, and you don't say what you want or you don't say what you need, then you just, whatever happens is the thing the other person wants, or the other person or people need, rather than, than you.

So [00:12:00] it, it seems to play out in all sorts of different dimensions as well. I'm remembering, it's a very silly example, but when I used to go out with my dad when I was a teenager, if we went out into a restaurant, or I mean, we didn't go to restaurants much when I was a teenager, but, and I'd say, oh, I just want, I'd like that burger, but I don't want the tomato on it or something.

He'd be all like, nah, get it down, you lass, and stop being so fussy. And that sort of sensitive part of me became, in a very light way, shamed. So I'd end up ordering food that I didn't like. It kind of covers. Yeah, we've talked about divorce, marriage, relationships, we've talked about sex, we've talked about neurodiversity.

But it comes right down, it's in every area of your life, this notion if you can just be you, then it's going to change your life at every level. Oh, it's true. And I think some people listening might think, well, how do I know if it's shame? I feel like if I'd been listening to this years and years ago, I would be trying to understand this concept of shame or how I recognize it in myself.

And I think the [00:13:00] two words that are in my mind is like it uncomfortable and restless. I think you've got to know and listen to yourself when you're, when you're listening. You won't know it's shame, but your body feels uncomfortable, or you're tense often, or you're restless. And don't ignore that, like, be curious.

I just think everyone, I wish more people would honour what they're feeling and be curious about it. Because then that can lead to just really beautiful places of um, actually tapping into yourself. How do you get people to be curious? Because that, I mean, that, that's like the Holy grail, really. How do we invite, how do we help people have curiosity about something that makes them, like you say, restless, that essentially is causing them pain and discomfort?

How do you get people to do that? I think there's a, there's a, I, well I wish the education system was a bit different. I think I wish emotional, emotional intelligence was taught and um, shown to us a little bit earlier on anyway, so we can identify what we're feeling and when things are good or bad. Yeah.

Or healthy or [00:14:00] not healthy. Because I think as people get older then, like you say, how do you instill that curious need to want to grow? Like with me working in personal development, half of my job is getting people to want to grow, or to have that desire there, rather than just where they're comfortable.

Which a lot of people do. But they still want more, but they don't know how to get it. Because they have to listen to something. Yeah. I like the question about, um, Does it feel like freedom? Does it feel warm? When I think about doing this thing or being this way, does it, does it, does it feel, does it feel right?

Does it feel freeing? And another question we could ask is, does it hurt anybody else? If I go in and stick a flag in it in this way, so let's say I've got neurodiversity and I'm going to a party, I might be absolutely terrified of what's Of all the ways that that would be stimulating in the wrong way.

Whereas if I could prepare the room, Philippa Perry says, [00:15:00] prepare the room for your arrival. So if I could sort of go in, stick a flag in my neurodiversity and say, right, okay, I'm really going to struggle with whatever it might be. Let's just say, um, overstimulation in the audio department. So I'm going to go in when I go in, cause I, cause I know this about myself, I'm going to find myself a quiet space.

And then what you're going to do is you're going to settle in that you're going to be more yourself. And again, like we said earlier, you're going to invite people. who also like that space, towards you. And because you're expressing a confidence then, being in that space, that's just gonna ooze out of you.

So if people can It's difficult to do and we will come to that and how difficult it is to actually stick a flag in it because there's all sorts of barriers in why people don't do that. But once you've done that, actually, you're not hurting anybody. You might impact other people because there might be people who Can't see you or can't find you or, it, it might impact other people but as long as it doesn't hurt other people.

We [00:16:00] can impact people, we are human beings and we live in communities, we are going to impact each other but as long as we're not hurting each other. Something that you just said then about preparing the room for your arrival. Tony Robbins, Tony Robbins says something about success that if you, if you get better at anticipating things, you don't get hit by things as much.

You don't then suddenly think you're at, you're in anxiety or you're, you're feeling low or down and you don't know the reasons why. If you like you, the example you just gave, if you go into a party and you know that you. Sometimes then you feel quite shameful about what you might dress like or what you wear or how you show up because you're very introverted and you feel ashamed of that because you just can't be confident.

Before you enter these situations or environments, I think it's really powerful that if you just know yourself in those little bits, you anticipate it. So this, the self soothing starts before you're even in those moments. Cause I think most people's struggle and spiraling happens because they feel like, Oh no.[00:17:00] 

I'm suddenly hit with this feeling. I don't know what to do with it. It's new. I don't like it. Um, so when you just said about preparing the room, I just thought there's so many scenarios of that of people even in work for the going into meetings, because they've got imposter syndrome going on and they think who am I to even do this job before they work in that meeting, walk into that meeting.

They're already going over all the things in their head. They think they're going to fall flat on, not know, look stupid for, um, If you anticipate those things about yourself, kind of hold hands with them before you go in. I think you just calm yourself. You calm your emotions, your feelings, and you're just more able to handle it because you're not taken by surprise so often.

You're using so much language that basically points to self compassion, aren't you? You're saying, hold your own hand. . Yeah. Be kind to yourself. Be gentle. Know your own limitations. All, all this, it's all, it's all self-compassion, isn't it? If we can know who we are, stick a flag in that. It is a gentle process.

It sounds like [00:18:00] quite an aggressive kind of spearing of the earth or something, but actually it is a deeply self-compassionate act. Mm-Hmm, . Well, yeah. A conversation we had, I think a couple of weeks ago. You. You mentioned something to me, and I relayed it then in a workshop, that one simple sentence that can be, of course I would, and it can be, the endings of that can be anything, but, of course I would feel this way.

Of course I'm bound to see it this way. Of course I would expect this to be the outcome. Given any past experience or what you've known, we can, it makes sense then. Yeah. Here is, here is my story. Here is my backstory. Here is my story. Of course, of course, I am going to act out in that way. Of course, I'm going to find those things, those things difficult.

Of course. Because as an example for anyone listening that maybe is even they're thinking of starting up a business or they want to start their own community. There's so much imposter syndrome that goes into that or even. [00:19:00] Feeling like a fraud at certain times, like for example, I've run workshops in the past when I like really had no money.

I was making ends meet and I'm just pushing everything to just get things moving and off the ground. Me feeling then showing up to those workshops thinking, you know, who am I to do this? My thinking then became more of, of course I would feel like this. I've been seeing these other coaches this week, following them on social media, looking like everyone has it together.

thinking that everyone else looks like they've got all the money. So who am I to be doing this work? You, the judgments start laying on like so much that then that is when you're in your like little shame party, because you have so much then pointing to you saying, are you serious? You actually are looking at yourself as if you're an idiot, but if you can walk into those rooms that you're afraid of by saying, of course, I'm going to be nervous about this.

This really matters to me. Of course, I'm going to be offended by that comment by someone because I think it's misunderstood or [00:20:00] so just for people to remember that line. Of course, of course I wouldn't. I love that. This really matters to me. I love that because anything, anything that really matters to us is going to upend our life.

It is going to cause us to push ourselves beyond our comfort zones. If things really matter, it is going to be difficult because we have to, because society creates a kind of homogenous. base layer of, of kind of nothingness. There's just ill, it's just ill defined on, on mass and each per, what we need is for each person to stand out and to be their own light in that, and then, then everything lights up.

But if everybody's just being a homogenous kind of blur version of them, of themselves and each other, yeah, it makes so much more sense. It's true, you're reminding me of a quote I saw the other day that said your, your life is hard for two reasons, you're either moving out of your comfort zone or you're sitting in it.

Oh! I know, it summed everything up, of the different, there's like two types of fear, [00:21:00] isn't there? You're always afraid that I'm not doing enough, my life's not enough, I'm not sure enough, all the other fear is, crap, crap, crap, I'm in it, I'm going for it, and, yeah. Just, it, it, there's no other way really. And they feel different.

Surely that fear is different. Surely that struggle is different. Yeah. Because one feels alive and the other one feels stuck, does it? Yeah. Well yeah, because one feels like you're, you're powerless. I think when people feel they're in the comfort zone and they're just sat in it, there must be an element of them that thinks, oh I'm helpless, I'm powerless, I can't really do anything about this, or I haven't got the energy to, or the skills.

Yeah. Until that moment comes that something shifts and they have that conversation with someone and a lightbulb moment. And then you step into, Oh, now my life's hard because I'm in it and I'm having to face the truth of, I'm afraid to do this, but I want to anyway. Equally as hard, but different. And I think you probably touched on the last section of the podcast today, [00:22:00] which is always about the role of therapy.

How therapy can help. So this podcast is, is limited. It's, it's not therapy. So we're never going to fix people in a podcast, hence the title. What we are going to get is, is a space where therapy can open up and you just touch them on how hard it is and what it is that's difficult for people, because if they're stuck in their comfort zones, if they're, If we are all, if we are coasting and we feel uncomfortable because we're coasting, because we feel stuck, because we, there's fear in that.

And if we sit long enough with the fear, um, you know, and I appreciate this doesn't sound quite as much fun as going out and having a massive party, but it does actually, to me, if I'm honest, sitting with pain, discomfort, suffering does actually sound better to me. Um, but if we sit with that fear long enough, then we can get to the real work.

And that's where a therapist can help because it is. These things are difficult. If we're, if we're asking people, when I think we are, aren't we, both of us saying, [00:23:00] be yourself. Essentially, find that part of you that you are frightened of being. Love it. And then take it to therapy. Let the therapist love it.

Let somebody you trust love it. If it's not a therapist, then, you know, Somebody in your life who you love, who loves you, and, and just let a little bit of that out. And then you get a disconfirming experience, you then get to feel that part of you that's frightened. Gets to feel what it's like to be loved.

And we can know, intellectually, that, yeah, yeah, I should be able to let this out, but I can't. But if we can feel what it is like to be loved, to be held in that space, oh, that, that's the powerful bit. And it is really hard. I think I learned years ago that, um, the concept that if you're struggling to think, I can't go and lean into this, I can't even begin to think about this at therapy, go down the route more.

So of what is this going to cost you? If you don't, if what are you going to lose potentially? Like [00:24:00] an And just let yourself be free with that. You know, are you going to keep continuing to attract the same kind of relationship that is harming you? Will your children suffer because you're not being the role model you want them to see?

Um, will you feel flat for a long period of time because you're not acting on passions that you really want to act on? Sometimes when you put that in front of people, it comes back to that whole, um, What are we more driven by pain or pleasure? Some people are driven and inspired by seeing everything they want.

And they're like, right, let me get to it. And they're going to make things happen. Other people show them everything they've come from, let them see it again. And they're like, Oh my God, I will do anything to move past this. So they will run from the pain. Um, so I just think if you're, uh, if you're struggling to lean into it or know how to, um, just go that route five, five years time if you're still in exactly the same day and feeling the way you do today.

Um, how would you feel and see if [00:25:00] that propels you more to take, to take action or be braver about listening to yourself? I kind of want to put a bit of a pause around that, give people time to think about it. I think that's, that's quite poignant. I think that there actually some of the fear as well of people sticking a flag in it and especially in relation to.

Um, other relationships if, if I sit here and I fear that by sticking a flag in the fact that I'm a really sensitive person and I'm going to have to stick a flag in that at some point, I'm going to have to own that I'm a really, really sensitive person and I find lots of things quite abrasive, then I'm going to fear that I'm probably going to lose some kind of relationship with people.

There'll be some people that I'm not going to be able to stay in touch with. They will either not be substantial enough for me anymore, or I won't be the right kind of person for them anymore. So let's say I used to go out and I was a heavy drinker, and I had a kind of party lifestyle, and all my friends are [00:26:00] party lifestyle too, and I want to tone that down, I want to slow that down.

Well, invariably, when I follow my own way, that is terrifying, because I know I fear that by doing that, by sticking a flag in my sort of desire to be a little quieter, to drink less, to, to do that less, that what I'm doing is I'm going to lose those people. And I don't think that fear is necessarily unfounded.

I think it could well come to pass. And I think it's not just as simple as choosing a party lifestyle or not. I think it can come out in much more subtle ways. I think, I think people fear losing relationships. And I think that that fear is. is likely to play out. What do you think? Oh, well, I think when you're saying that, so much of me can relate from hearing again people in workshops that we love familiarity.

As much as we want and we crave the things we desire, we actually, you know, we all have to have that element of certainty. It makes us feel safe. It's predictable. We know what our lives are going to bring. [00:27:00] But when you start giving people this lens of, Oh, but this may lead to this. And maybe this person is now the person that will be, you know, healthier for you to hang around with or that change, or even the prospect of it.

can terrify some people. Particularly if you're someone that I think grew up with things changing all the time. My, personally, my upbringing was more of, it was predictable. It was predictable, it was certain, it was stable. Um, but other people where there was moving parts a lot, um, change then can terrify them.

Because if they found their happy medium as they've got older, if they then hit their own midlife crisis, that could be awful. Because it just transports them back. Yeah, because they've spent their life trying to get onto the even keel. Naturally, they're going to hit road bumps, as I think we all do. But that can be really terrifying, whereas I think because I came from stable, predictable, I've almost made my life that I'm impulsive and I take risks and because the balance is entirely, you know, it's polar [00:28:00] opposite to what my childhood was.

So it's like a reaction to, it's a response to. Yeah, yeah, to change and what it means to you. What it represents for you, you know, did you see people making changes as you were growing up? For whoever's listening, you know, what your parents were like, or what family was like in general? Was everything very the same?

Or were people changing things all the time? That's going to have an effect. I think that's important to take note of for us all to See where we came from, what, what we've got conditioned in there, what messages we got. And our relationship to those messages, because I did come from a family that had a lot of change.

There was a lot of, I like your phrase, moving parts. There were a lot of moving parts, quite literally. People, my dad's wives, like people moving in and out of the house. It was, it was a really changeable, 20, 15 years. And I love change now. And so it's not, it's not necessarily that our relationship to it is going to be to propel ourselves away from that [00:29:00] kind of experience.

It could be that perhaps that sort of way of living is in our blood or in our bones. And actually it feels like a familiar pattern that we want more of or that keeps us alive somehow. Or maybe it's not. Maybe it is, like you say, aggravating that wound. Um. And you'll only know the answer to that with how you feel.

Absolutely. I think you'll only know if you feel content within those changes and that you create life that way that you're happy with. It's when people aren't, then I think, okay, we know that it's not serving us, however we're being. It's interesting what you said then about that people were in and out of your house.

It made me think of there's a, if anyone else listening that maybe had something similar where they didn't feel a priority to anyone or they didn't feel important because there was always moving things around or moving people. Or, um, I think that's worth looking at if you're someone that struggles to acknowledge how you feel and your own shame, because just because at one point in your life, maybe you didn't feel anyone's priority or important.[00:30:00] 

You can still make yourself important today. And that's been a forever practice of mine, to actually listen to my feelings, not just because to listen, but because they matter. If I don't see to my feelings and like who I am, I'm an auntie different to my nephews and nieces. I'm a different kind of sister.

I'm a different kind of daughter. So yeah, just something that was just interesting, what you said then about, yeah, if there is a lot of change when you're younger, that can And again, you're inviting people. If you are working on that and you're saying, I value myself, you are, I was going to use the word demanding, but that sounds a bit aggressive really, but you are kind of expecting, perhaps is a better word, you're expecting other people to value you too.

Yeah. You're putting, you are actually, yes, because I met a woman at a seminar, probably about 10 years ago now, and I remember she, I can't remember what the job was, but it was quite a profound, really meaningful job. [00:31:00] And I said, Oh wow, you know, it's so inspiring that you do all this. How do you like maintain it and do this?

And she simply said back to me, Oh, I'm really kind to myself. And to me at the time, it was like, what? How has anyone ever say this? Like, it was so new. And I remember thinking like, how? Like, what does she mean day to day? And she just said, I, I listen to myself. I take care of myself. I make sure I have what I need.

Um, and to some people that would sound like selfish. Like, but I think times are changing that now self care and self love, we can't pour from an empty cup. It matters, but for, for how many people would say that? But for her to say, yeah, to stick a flag in, I can totally imagine what that did to you. Like, knowing what I do about you, you've just been listening to that.

The reason I'm sharing that is because when you're saying it gives people that invitation She that in that moment, she like opened up another another avenue to life to me that oh, there's something I don't know about here I wouldn't [00:32:00] even know that concept if I'm really kind to myself back then So she made me think oh, there's something I can explore here It was and that's again an example of when you just speak about things you have no idea How much that's going to trigger something in someone else Yes Yeah So let it be a truth.

Let it be something beautiful. Yeah. And I don't doubt that that woman has maybe come from a space where it wasn't. You don't get born with just thinking, Oh, I'm super kind to myself. She had probably gone through her own stuff to, to arrive at that place where she'd learned that self compassion was huge and that she couldn't keep doing the work she did if she wasn't kind to herself.

Right. Yeah. So she'd learned the hard way. Um. Yeah, because you don't say those things without, something like that, that we speak of with pride. All these things that we're sticking a flag in, they don't come easily, do they? Because otherwise we wouldn't have to put a flag in it, it would just be, it would just, it would just come easy.

And so there is a struggle that [00:33:00] sits behind everybody speaking that truth in a kind of honest way. Some respect from me, I think that is respect. I think it's, um, I think it's worth mentioning, but I don't know, maybe to a previous point we were speaking about as well, but I saw something that was, um, it's like it was research done on, you know, the feelings of, or like the frequency of feelings in our body and nervous system.

And it was really interesting to, to hear that the, the feeling and emotion of anxiety and excitement are actually really, like intrinsically linked. They're very similar. Yeah. And I just think when we're talking about leaning into things or maybe going to a therapy or, um, what you said before about, you know, preparing the room when you, you feel ashamed of things and anticipating what might come up.

Be aware that like there might be an element of excitement for you in certain scenarios where you, there is change and you want to go in, but it feels like anxiety. So sometimes to just, you've got to, you've got to go. You've got to take that step and put yourself in that new [00:34:00] scenario or just make that change, take that risk to then, then assess it and see how you feel.

Gear change as well into this, this notion of what we risk losing. You, you said something earlier about a woman that you met, I think, on, who'd come into one of your workshops. And when, when people do finally kind of get to a place where they. can hold with a little bit more pride and they can stick a flag in whatever part of themselves they've been previously shameful about.

There can be an awful lot of loss then that comes out. Loss for the little them, the little person who was shamed in the first instance, but also loss for that life. That they could have had a lot of, oh my God, I'm now 30, 40, 50, 60, and I'm only just learning this about myself. I'm only just being able to hold that part of myself with tenderness.

[00:35:00] And there's a, I think there can be a phenomenal amount of grief that comes out at that point. And I think that can, that can also be frightening. Nevermind the kind of standing up with the shame and being proud and, you know, the act of kind of having to expose that part of ourselves. The risk of having to expose.

A part of our psyche or a part of who we are. Ooh. But actually the, the grief of then coming face to face with, Fuck, I've not done that all my life. I've not done that. I think there's a brutality in that actually. That's painful. It is, you're making me think of, I don't know if it was the same woman I was referencing, but you remind me of another woman who had three children with the husband, and then they parted because it was an abusive relationship.

And after months of us working together, it was only towards the end that she said one day, uh, I think what kills me is that, I now don't, it's not the image I was supposed to have. Because then she'd met someone else, she's happy now, had another child, really happy. But at the time, she, [00:36:00] She couldn't almost comprehend that, you know, you're supposed to get married and the dad was supposed to be there for the children she had.

The fact now she was going to have to create this other life, it was just so hard for her to comprehend. Like it, in her words, she said, I'm just not supposed to have another family. Like this is weird. I'm supposed, it was supposed to be that image, that blueprint of what she got raised, you know, parents stay together, no matter what.

She was so ashamed that she was almost having to reinvent the belief around everything that, you know, you don't end a marriage no matter what. And you don't have children by two fathers. Like she, um, yeah, the shame was more that the image looked wrong. So wrong. And she'd grown up with that. Her mom was quite a judgmental mother.

So it wasn't just then like, like the initial breakup and sorting out things with children that you can, it's the practicalities of arranging that, sorting through those things. But actually what she was left with is that, She's not a flawed human being because now she's had to [00:37:00] create another kind of blueprint.

It was just really Yeah, rewrite that narrative. My narrative should be this. So we write this story based on expectations that we imbibe when we're kids and teenagers. So she's got this whole narrative. This is what my life's going to look like. And life didn't pan out like that. So now she's got, what, do I just have to scribble all that out and rewrite this new version of me?

Yeah, as a failed one. As somebody who's failed at that. That dreamy one, the fairytale version of it. Yeah, the loss of it. I think that's what made me think when you were talking about the loss of it. It's the, it is. It's the loss of the whole idea. There's a lot linked to what we build around our personality.

Who we're supposed to be, who we're supposed to be becoming. So when you're, yeah, often, I do think that. I think when often we're feeling ashamed or we have moments of it. It's because it doesn't match with what we're thinking it should. It's as simple as that, I think. Because my biggest moments of shame are when I've retreated.

It's always linked with some form [00:38:00] of success. Or something failed that I tried at, or I gave my all. It's not panned out. So you're talking about expectation? I had this expectation and it was not met. Yeah. And then I blame myself. My shame is that, my blame is, where did I go wrong? Always. What did I not do enough of?

What did I not do right? What did I say wrong? I think it's expectation and this, the idea of things, I think if we could shed that life is just actually ever changing and if we can roll with that, I think we'd all have an easier time that we actually don't have control over anything. We're just, the only job we have is to get the most out of the days we're in, in the healthiest and most joyful ways possible.

I mean, you make that sound easy. I know, I know. That is absolutely what we need to do, isn't it? I am doing my best, right now I'm doing my best. My best, yeah, exactly that. Because I had a woman, it was really, it was funny, actually we did laugh and so did she at one of the workshops with the questionnaire, it said, What do you think you have to do to move past this?

For the reason that she'd [00:39:00] put down to come in. And she said, Oh, I need to rewire my childhood trauma and change my beliefs to empower instead. But she said, it's so matter of fact, and I think it's so easy for us on a podcast like this, or with anyone doing this sort of work, um, around wellbeing or mental health, it is so easy that yes, we know what we're trying to get to.

But the reality is for all of us and us included for any of us that's doing the work. It's um, as Brené Brown says, it's brutal. It's a grueling process if you really want to go there, and you really want to live fully, and very unconsciously, and, and empowered. It just takes time, and it's, it is just a ride.

You just, you get ups and downs of it, you plateau for a month, where it feels like, I'm kind of content, and then you'll get hit with something though, and it's like, oh. It's just all a journey. And that is a monumental thing to just say in passing, isn't it? I'm going to rewire my childhood. Yeah, but you could tell that she wanted it.

That's what's so beautiful. [00:40:00] She'd obviously looked into this. She'd researched. She knew what she had to do. Yeah. And I just thought the fact that she was there so willing with that desire and drive, I'm here, I'm going to do the work. It's lovely that she'd put herself in that environment with other women who were, she would then soon realize, ah, there's different aspects to this.

It's not, it's not a straightforward path to overcome in, yeah. Yeah, this is going to hurt. I know what I want to do. I might even know that I am going to do it. But I might not know just how, how transformative it's going to be and how much that, I'm doing an action with my hands that nobody can see, obviously.

But that act of changing, that act of transition, that act of, Nothing is so painful to the human mind as a great and sudden change, I think T. S. Eliot said. And that notion of I have to change this is a massive ship to turn around. It's like tectonic plates moving an inch a year. It's hard. Well done to her.

I know, I [00:41:00] know. People are so fucking brave, aren't they? I think. I know! People are so brave. I want to say thank you so much for coming on. That has been super talking to you. Thank you. Oh, thank you, Nadine. Thanks for giving me this opportunity. It's so nice to help spread the word and, um, share the work that we do and how more people can lean into this much more easily than you'll think if you just, um, give things a go, lean in.

If you'd like to share a metaphor or way of looking at life or an aspect of human behaviour, then I'd love to hear from you. Get in touch via Instagram or Facebook, just search ThisWon'tFixYou. I look forward to hearing from you.